I see your point about nothing being cleared up…

Everyone here seems to be fixated on the "action" itself -- on TIE Fighters and TIE Advanced Fighters (which may do a barrel roll without penalty, and neglected to take into account the "effect" of a "barrel roll" -- "You may then remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship," and the pilot receives a "stress token". The "carded action", Barrel Roll, to me, is to balance the X-Wings and TIE Advanced; which also have the ability to "target lock" enemy fighters.

That said, the developers should make an addendum to the Barrel Roll action in regards to the TIE Fighters: "When being target locked, you may perform a barrel roll; you may remove 1 enemy target lock, and receive a stress token."

SteveSpikes said:

Huh ? That doesn't make sense.

rhaak said:

I agree. Makes no sense. Barrel Roll works the way it is supposed to. Expert Handling lets you get rid of a Target Lock. If you're saying that the Barrel Roll action should be changed to be the same as Expert Handling, then I have to disagree. If every TIE fighter in the game could get rid of a Target Lock simply by performing a Barrel Roll, then what is the use of a Target Lock carrying over to the next round. The TIEs would be able to get rid of it before you could use it. Makes No Sense.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

I can think of more than one reason for Vader to use Expert Handling, in fact, it's fantastic for Vader.

IN ADDITION to playing "Expert Handling" (which gives him a barrel roll and an enemy target lock removal ), Vader can perform one of the following actions: target lock , focus , or evade .

Just because the rules don't allow Vader to double barrel roll, doesn't mean that his second action is by any means wasted when playing "Expert Handling."

I think the semantic argument here in favor of "Star Fox Vader" (Do a barrel roll! Do a barrel roll!) is interesting but weak.

See if you follow my logic on this:

1. Vader gets two actions .

2. Vader chooses to do a barrel roll for action 1

3. The rule book clearly states that performing the same action 2x in one turn (even free actions) is a violation of the rules .

4. "Expert Handling" card text: " ACTION: Perform a barrel roll …"

5. Vader plays "Expert Handling" card

Conclusion : Vader's 2 selected actions are in violation of the rules .

Expert Handling is an elite pilot skill which has 3 ACTION components:

1. Perform a barrel roll (you MUST)

2. Receive a stress token if your ship doesn't have the barrel roll skill (you MUST)

3. May remove 1 enemy target lock from your ship (OPTIONAL)

If you cannot perform the first two compulsory parts of the card text, then you cannot play the card.

If you cannot barrel roll again, then you cannot play Expert Handling at all.

Expert Handling includes a barrel roll action. If you cannot perform a barrel roll action, then you cannot play the Expert Handling card.

Note: Bold, Capitals, Underline and Italics are for clarity only (not emotion).

Daveydavedave said:

First of all, please show me where I said that his second action is wasted. In no way does Expert Handling take away his second action.

You also didn't give a reason for him TO use Expert Handling. You talked about other things he can use AFTER he uses Expert Handling. These are all things he could still use AFTER using Barrel Roll. My main point still stands. For Vader, the only difference between Expert Handling and Barrel Roll is the ability to remove a Target Lock. Therefore since he already has Barrel Roll on his card, the ability to remove a Target Lock is THE ONLY REASON why he would need to use it. If he doesn't care about removing Target Locks, then he doesn't need to spend the 2 points on Expert Handling.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

Ah now I see what you meant. You are quite right, excuse my misunderstanding.

You are saying that for 2 points Vader only benefits from 2 of the 3 parts of the expert handling card:

Dumping a target lock and not having to take a stress token, but he doesn't benefit from the barrel roll action part of the card text, cause he can already do one anyway.

So its 2 points spent to be able to cancel 1 target lock… kinda meh for Vader. Not bad for an X-Wing pilot tho.

I thought you were arguing that because Vader doesn't get much out of expert handling, it must be designed to allow a second barrel roll. So I was pointing out that the card mechanic does at least make sense for single barrel roll Vader. Although now that you mention it, expert handling probably isn't worth its point cost for Vader.

I made a similar point in the rules forum. It's really not worth 2 points for any of the current imperial ships since they all already have barrel roll.

El_Tonio said:

Seems kid of odd they would give the imperials something that is hardly worth taking. So, I could really see this going either way at this point and look forward to an official ruling.

Just out of curiosity, do other folks think expert handling is worth 2 points for imperial players if all it does for them is allow them to remove a target lock (i.e., since they can already do a barrel roll without it)?

It costs a stress if you don't already have barrel roll. I actually think it is better for imperials than it is for rebels.

Hrathen said:

But, you've already done your action (i.e., expert handling/barrel roll) so you don't lose it this turn. And, you can easily do a green move next turn so you never lose it. So, I don't think there is much of a drawback for Rebels at all.

El_Tonio said:

Yes, but you don't always have the luxury of performing a green maneuver. I think this upgrade is just fine for 2 points.

El_Tonio said:

Sounds like I'm going to have to do some playtesting with expert handling as a rebel.

Roy

Parakitor said:

Sure, but more often than not you can on a 36x36 inch mat and you'll still have a target (or, even if you do a non-green move, odds are someone will be able to target you in a 100 point game).

Plus, sometimes not having an action is not a big deal (just like sometimes you may not have the luxury of performing a green move).

Alliance players may not lose their action, but they will have paid 2 points for expert handling, and they will be stressed, preventing a subsequent koiogran turn and forcing a green maneuver at some point. This allows the imperial player to capitalize on the lack of movement options.

I'd say its good for both for different reasons.

Imperials getting out of target lock (which every single Alliance ship has) means no torpedoes/rerolls for Alliance that turn

Rebels get a one time barrel roll and remove adv tie locks, but have to take a stress token

Isn't expert handling in the adv tie booster? or is it in the starter?

Daveydavedave said:

It comes with the X-Wing expansion and the TIE Advanced expansion.

I actually like this point quite a bit. Since imperials don't currently have target lock, being able to shake it for the rebels is not really important. So, they get the barrel roll. The opposite is true for the imperials… they get to shake a lock, but don't get the barrel roll which they already/currently all have.

Assuming most imperials continue to not have access to target lock, I now see how it is about equal for both sides (especilly since only Darth Vader is the only one who can currently perform two actions anyway).

EDIT: So, if this is the ruling, is expert handling that great for 2 points for either side? A barrel roll for rebels doesn't seem that handy for the cost. For imperials shaking a target lock seems expensive for two points since you basically have to sacrifice all other action options to take it. Aren't there other cards that are better for 2 points?

which brings us full circle to Vader and how expert handling is not exactly amazing for him. All you really get is one cancelled lock target for 2 points. I guess when you consider how hard he is to kill already, this might be 2 points well spent if it frustrates the rebels plans further.

Is expert handling better in the hands of a higher skilled pilot? Think about the initiative order. If you get to go last, then you can cancel the lock target that just got placed on you. If you have to go first, then you can only cancel a previous turn's lock, allowing the same guy to just re-lock and fire.

Daveydavedave said:

In my opinion, Expert Handling would could work well on Vader IF AND ONLY IF they rule that he can use it AND Barrel Roll in the same turn. This is a HUGE movement advantage. Two back to back Barrel Rolls is like using a [3 straight] maneuver template instead of a [1 straight] template. That is a big difference and could give Vader yet another advantage since in most situations he will be using it after everyone else moves.

Roy

bsmith13 said:

You will not get an official response on these forums. You never will. It's FFG policy, and the terms of use of these forums imply as much.

Use the Rules Questions link at the bottom of the page. Post here when/if you get a response.

FFG does not post on these forums.

I don't think most of us expect a ruling based on just this thread at this point. I'm guessing one or more people have submitted a formal question using the formal procedures. I did a day or so just to add another request to the list so they know several people are wondering (i.e., so it would be a frequently asked question rather than just an asked question). I sent them a link to this thread in case they wanted to read any of the comments, but hopefully they will respond to one or more of us sooner or later and in one way or another.

If you've not asked yet via the formal procedures, maybe you could consider doing so. Repeats may not speed things up, but I'm sure they will not slow things down, either.

radiskull said:

radiskull said:

I admit it; I'm lazy. I am waiting for someone to ask the question, using the little button at the bottom of the page and post there response.

drkjedi35 said:

I've been thinking about this a bit. Just think how amazingly worth it's cost Expert Handling would be for Vader if those 2 points bought you target lock immunity all game long. And no target lock = no torpedoes. And no torpedoes means good luck killing Vader, he's already hard enough to get a clean shot on because of barrel roll and evade.

If you spam this, the only counter is locking him more than once (because no one takes their action after Vader, he's the highest skilled pilot in the game - Wedge is the only equal). After double locking, you would then have to keep both X-Wings on line for a shot, or Vader could just unlock the one who can see him and avoid the other.

I'm already working on an Imperial list which can avoid almost all target locks and therefore completely shut down torpedoes. Do you think it could work? You'd have to take all pilots with the elite skill upgrade option.