If you equip Darth Vader with Expert Handling this means he can barrel roll twice in one turn right? Once with Expert Handling and once with Barrel Roll?

Seems legitimate to me.

In my opinion, no he couldn't. Expert Handling lets you perform a Barrel Roll. And as per page 9 of the rule book, "…a ship cannot perform the same action more than once during a single game round (not even when the action is a free action."

Vader's game text lets him do 2 actions, but they still can't be the same action. Since he already has Barrel Roll, the only reason for Vader to use Expert Handling is if he is trying to remove a Target Lock.

But I could be wrong. FFG could come back and say that Expert Handling is not considered a Barrel Roll and they may let you do it twice. This is just my two creds.

Roy

Roy: I want to agree with you, but the card says 'Perform a barrel roll' not 'Perform a Barrel Roll'. I really wish it had just used the symbol, the it would be definitive. I think this is another one that needs to go to the question box.

I know what you mean. I'll send the question along and see what kind of response I get.

Roy

Forgot about the can't-perform-the-same-action-in-one-round rule. I think he shouldn't be able to do two barrel rolls. I look forward to hearing the official answer.

Budgernaut said:

"I'M SPINNIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIING!"

Budgernaut said:

I guess it comes down to: is Vader performing two barrel rolls or is Vader performing one barrel roll and one Expert Handling? I'm actually thinking the second, but it'll be interesting to see how the official answer turns out and how they explain it.

Does Expert Handling count as a free action ?

I am sorry, you only get one action. If you use expert handling you make a barrel roll and you get to remove a target lock. There is also an added benifit if you already have the barrel roll ability, that this action does not cause stress, but you stil only get one barrel roll.

Hrathen said:

Except if you play Darth Vader, who gets two.

Aahzmandius_Karrde said:

Seriously? That is pretty darn nit-picky. In my book, a spade is a Spade. I agree that symbols would have been better but this is pretty clear to me. Vader can't execute the same maneuver twice. The maneuver from expert handling is not called "expert handling", they're calling it out specifically as a barrel roll.

This is not the same as Vader having Marksmanship and using Focus in the same turn. No where does Marksmanship say "perform a focus action." I think that is the strongest rebuttal to the double barrel roll argument.

rhaak said:

Expert Handling has the "Action" descriptor on the card and therefore is (and takes up) one action. If something allowed you to take a free action, then you might be able to choose Expert Handling as that action but in and of itself, it is not a free action.

Well, it's intuitively obvious to me that he shouldn't get two, too. But the rules can be interpreted as being ambiguous, so I guess an official ruling is needed indeed.

haslo said:

Please note, I'm not trying to antagonize anyone but to be clear: the ambiguity stems ONLY from the fact that it says "Action: perform a barrel roll". If it said "Action: perform a Barrel Roll" then it would be clear Vader could not use the Expert Handling action and a Barrel Roll maneuver in the same turn?

spacemonkeymafia said:

Herein lies the distinction. The rules forbid taking the same Action more than once in a round. "Barrel Roll" is an Action you can take on your turn to perform a "barrel roll" maneuver. Maneuvers are not Actions. So, in my mind, yes, Vader can in fact take the Barrel roll action, then take (and receive the full benefits of) the Expert Handling Action. This will cause him to perform two "barrel roll maneuvers", but only one "Barrel Roll Action."

I likewise am eager to hear official word on this.

i can see both sides of the fence, but would personally say no, he cant do a barrel roll twice.

Tawnos said:

I erroneously introduced the "maneuver" term when discussing this before. To clarify, no where in the rules do they ever refer to a barrel roll as anything but an Action. As far as I can tell, there is no reference to a "barrel roll maneuver".

spacemonkeymafia said:

There is no such thing as a Barrel Roll "maneuver". Barrel Roll is only an action. Just because you use a maneuver template, does not make it a maneuver. Both Barrel Roll and Expert Handling still happen during the "Perform Action" step of the "Activation Phase". Think about it like this. Maneuvers are executed and Actions are performed . The first sentence on the Expert Handling card reads " Perform a barrel roll." So if you use Expert Handling you will have to perform a Barrel Roll. Therefore you cannot perform another Barrel Roll this round.

Roy

drkjedi35 said:

I appreciate that this discussion remains on a strictly logical level, and this post makes the wonder I've had for a few days now rather explicit: Since performing Expert Handling is performing an action, but it seems that performing a Barrel Roll is performing an action even if it's done during the … performation … of Expert Handling:

It seems that there are nested actions in X-Wing. Actions that, when performed, allow you to perform one or more other actions.

Interestingly, the action of Darth Vader exactly is one such action, too: It's an action that allows you to perform any two other actions.

With this parallel in mind, I'm now fairly convinced that Darth Vader cannot perform two barrel rolls (or Barrel Rolls, for that matter)…

drkjedi35 said:

Um…I'm pretty sure that's exactly what spacemonkeymafia just said. Thanks for being an echo, though.

I sure hope I didn't just spam the crap out of this thread. I've tried to post like, 4 times, and it just won't take. Any known issues like that on these forums?

drkjedi35 said:

I disagree. To me, an Action is defined by either a) using a defined Action from the rule book that is allowed by your pilot, or b) activating the Action: portion of a card. The results of activating those Actions are not Actions in and of themselves. Just because Expert Handling causes you to "perform a barrel roll" doesn't mean that Expert Handling is both an "Expert Handling Action" AND a "Barrel Roll Action".

To illustrate what I'm saying:

• Action: Barrel Roll
• Result: Perform a barrel roll.

• Action: Expert Handling
• Result: Perform a barrel roll + fluff.

The rules state that you cannot take the same Action twice in a turn. They do not disallow taking different actions that yield the same result, or performance, or maneuver, or whatever other undefined term we choose to use.

Again, everything said on this topic up to with point is conjecture. We won't know for sure what the intent of the rules is until someone from on high at FF let's us know. But until then, in my games, Vader can use Barrel Roll and Expert Handling in the same turn.

haslo said:

Actually, Darth Vader's ability is not an Action in and of itself. If it were, it would say "Action: Take two actions."

Tawnos said:

See, that's what FFG is doing to me! Not having the game yet, I get all kinds of rules wrong! It's just not fair!