A couple of players I play with have expressed concern (after seeing the contents of Hero's Call), that they will not truly be uber when they reach Rank 5.

I can't say I disagree with this much, though my players are still Rank 2 so we haven't really playtested it yet. Just looking over the abilities and such it doesn't seem like a character rank5 will be TONS more powerful than a rank1. You can still only use one action per turn (in most cases). And while there is some modest increase in power for some classes, others get very little (it seems).

Does anyone else have this impression? Has anyone else reached Rank4/5, and can you give some feedback as to how high-ranks play?

The answer is yes, once character hit rank 3 (that is 20 sessions of game) and they can have 3 yellow dice in their skills, they can only improve slightly from there on (rise a characteristic, increase wounds etc). Your only real way of "significantly improving" above rank 3 is branching to other fields of expertise.

The only characters that really win something by reaching rank 4 and 5 are spell casters.

This happens in part because in wfrpg 3 player characters start very powerful (a new born character will have success ratings on checks of Average difficulty ranging from 60% to 70% in his field of expertise), additionally PC evolve very fast, which means exactly what your players are pointing out. The question is, what does "uber" mean for you? From my experience PCs are "uber" already at rank 3. Just to give some more numbers, a PC at rank 3 will have success ratings ranging from 66% to 76%+ in a Daunting (4d) check in his field of expertise!

So, I would guide the concern of your players along another direction, they don't have to wait for ran 4 or 5 to be uber, they will be uber at rank 3

throvolos said:

I do not think a character should ever become uber in a WFRP game, seeing as it is a "grim and periolus world". You should always run the risk of dying, failing or similar, otherwise it just won't be grim and dark. Still, at rank 3-4 the characters are pretty powerful, with several expertise dice and fortune dice at their disposal, making them succeed at what they're good at almost all the time.

throvolos said:

Skill training is probably the best way to become powerful, as well as increases in characteristics and fortune advances in those characteristics. A lot of expertise (and fortune dice) ensure that you'll almost never fail, often get to use the better success lines, boon lines and more often score a Sigmar's Comet.

This helps you do more damage in combat and succeed better over all in any situation. High rank also gives you the opportunity to broaden your skill set, making you better a better character in more situations. Same goes for actions, if you have all the combat actions you want for examplem get some social, support or other actions which makes you useful more often, You also stack up more career abilities, which further improves your character.

Also, many dice in your pool means that you can utilize the enhancement cards to their full potential, all the while being (relatively) sure of good successes on the rolls that follow.

I believe that a combat oriented rank 1 character would be severely beaten by a combat oriented rank 5 character. The rank 5 character would succeed so much better and do so many more criticals that the rank 1 character would probably die relatively fast. Even with the same gear, actions and talents.

throvolos said:

I for one almost feel that my players are becoming too powerful at rank 3 (they are soon at rank 4). They can't go off fighting dragons I guess, and encounters with humans are still challenging. So in that sense they are not uber, but on the other hand they succeed at almost all skill checks they do. Especially at average difficulty or lower at hard or daunting checks they still succeed a lot in their areas of expertise. That's uber in my mind.

I think challenge dice scale to slow and top out to fast. 1 Challenge die isn't much of an obstacle even for a Rank 1 character. Challenge dice should go up to at least 6 dice IMO. It would help keep the scales from tipping quite so much in player's favor as they advance. Maybe have it go 1 Challenge Die, 2, 4, 6 instead of 1,2,3,4. Just a thought.

I've run a table through over 70 sessions, with a houserule that advancing rank takes 4 non-career advances (so an extra 16 to get to 5th rank) and I find the balance working well.

I find high rank a mostly pleasing effect - they are really competent. Playing 1000 thrones and making them make 5 challenge die (using hero's call rule that at 4+ a chaos star = failure + chaos star) and a handful of misfortune dice Willpower checks to resist "Karl's aura" 3 of 3 exposed have made the check. That said they don't make every roll and check and most importantly they get hit and suffer fatigue and stress lots still. I have a rank 5 wizard who can temporarily stop time and make himself so bright its very hard to strike him (at least for a bit), and who has magically improved his soak, but who is currently 1 Fatigue point from unconsciousness due to the cold waters of the Reik in winter and a miscast, I have an elf uber-archer who can often take down one foe of almost any type in one go with right combo talents/actions with his choice ranged attack but who is in danger of falling as he is trapped facing a tilean duellist etc.

On the power side, it's not just training, it's more characteristic dice and stance dice and its nice little talents that allow fiddling dice pools results "just right" etc. that make them effective.

The critical difference to me is that unlike some systems, this doesn't stop the opposition also being effective at dishing out pain and punishment to them. That keeps the game interesting while letting the players experience being effective. Scenario wise, challenge is kept up by just putting them in situations where they really need to be very effective.

Rob

Thanks for the replies everyone. That helps answer a lot of questions. I have enjoyed WFRP (3rd ed) far more than any other fantasy gaming system I've ever played. It's encouraging to know that my players will feel powerful… until I up the ante, so to speak.