Last night, we played the quest The Wyrm Rises. During the Encounter 2, the OL gets Belthir. Belthir has an ability as follows:

Action: Cry Havoc: Belthir performs a move action and then an attack action. The attack targets every figure he moves through".

The basic rules of D2e allows any monster to take 2 actions, but only one of them is suppose to be an attack action. That can be modified by playing a card such as Frenzy which allows 2 attacks.

Now, since Cry Havoc is a declared action (as identified by the black arrow on the card) which happens to allow both a move and an attack action, the issue came up as to whether or not Belthir should be allowed to use two Cry Havoc actions, essentially allowing him to move twice and attack twice WITHOUT the use of any additional cards.

In order to complete the quest, we all agreed that this was allowed, basing our thinking on the fact that any other card (monster or lieutenant) that identifies an ability triggered by using an action can be used twice; further, most of the players seemed to agree that this extra power of Belthir's is consistent with the fact that it only appears on his ACT II card, and that he is a lieutenant after all.

His ability to use Cry Havoc twice is extremely powerful, and almost always resulted in his ability to move and attack all 4 heroes. I will say that the heroes quickly got smart and used abilities/weapons which immobilized him. Once immobilized, we all agreed he could no longer use Cry Havoc as it required the use of a move action. Further, by immobolizing him, it allowed them to win the Encounter as the only way the OL can win is if Belthir gets off the board.

They kept him Immobolized by using the Beserker ability called Cripple. The Hero utilized was Karnon who has a strength of 6, meaning he passes his attribute test 35 out of 36 rolls (essentially causing Immobolization all of the time). The worst part of this is that the Cripple ability does not even require the use of an action (it does cost 2 fatigue); so Karnon could double move, get next to Belthir, and Cripple him. Once near him, he would cripple him, and then rest. Thus no fatigue issue.

So, two questions:

1) If you played this quest, did you allow Belthir to use both actions for Cry Havoc, allowing him to move twice and attack twice?

2) Who else finds it rather unbalanced to allow an Immobolization without the use of an action? I guess it wouldn't be so bad if the OL had some way to remove Condition cards, but he doesn't.

Just looking for some feedback.

we ruled that cry havoc could not be used twice because it says attack action and you cannot use an attack action as both actions.

kiper32 said:

I understand your position, and noted same. And yet, there is precedence within the game for taking multiple attacks. Several monsters have the Ravage ability which allows multiple attacks. In addition, there are many monsters/lieutenants which have abilities activated by utilizing an action which effectively attacks a hero, and which can be used multiple times.

Despite what some are most likely to say, there is no clear, fast and true rule here. Nevertheless, I do appreciate your response, as I would like to know how the majority are playing it.

Ravage is a specific case, just as using a frenzy card is a specific case noted on the card. As for actions that you can do twice, but you state are essentially attacks, I would say as long as they do not say "attack action" they can be used twice, however cry havoc specifically states attack action.

Oh Cripple… one of the best hero abilities in game IMO. That skill has single-handedly won the heroes two otherwise close encounters. As an OL it makes me rage inside that there is no OL-card that can deal with conditions.. :|

uppTagg said:

Indeed. I find this extremely annoying. At the very least lieutenants should definitely have a way to remove conditions.

We had a similar evening with this map. I played the overloard and with a lucky Dash card I was able to quickly get next to the heroes and double attack 3 of them. The heroes were down and out after that (my Goblin Archers cleaned house).

It does seem rather powerful, but I think it's the nature of this map. The Lieutenant is meant to be nearly impossible without just the right attacks. The heroes did considerable damage to him and if they had a couple non-X throws he probably would have died.

I would say it's fairly balanced as long as both sides are keeping their wits about them (aka don't cluster together). And remember to always make every single action you take as a hero accomplish something.

I can't speak to the Cripple, but it sounds pretty terrible for the OL. I would imagine that combination is kind of a special case for this map.

I actually personally think it is clear that two cry havoc actions in the same turn are not allowed, nor is a cry havoc and an attack. You can move and cry havoc, and that's the only combination of those actions that would be allowed.

There is no special ability on Bel'thir to allow him to make extra attacks. He does not have Ravage. Cry Havoc includes an attack, and therefore takes up his one allowed attack for the turn.

I don't see why this would be an exception to the rule.

Yeah, agreed with the above.

Skarn's Thrash attack, Arachyura's Pincer attack, Giants' Sweep attack... They´re all "declared attack" (to use your terminology) and grant an attack, but they do count towards the maximum number of attacks a monster can do each turn, which is 1 unless they have the Ravage ability or another effect triggered by a OL card.

This said, Move + Cry Havoc might not be the only thing you can do with Belthir. Many quests require monsters to spend actions for interacting with objective tokens for instance, or just for opening doors. Cry Havoc is also a nice ability as it garantees Belthir a "regular" Move + Attack sequence even if he´s stunned.

Agreed, played this quest recently. Thought I dont understand how overlord can win 1 encounter. This quest is soooo hero-oriented in my opinion. how did you manage to win 1 encounter?

Cirpple costs 2 stamina, requires strength check and requires to be adjacent, so it's not that imbalanced after all. Runemaster is far more horrible in this regard.

Also this post is 2 years old =)

I know, but someone necro'd it so I thought I'd make the answer clear.