N0-1_H3r3 said:

That is the way I assumed it would work and the way I did it during our last session on Thursday actually. Intelligencer Ayden was involved and scared the hell out of our PCs... After all, I cannot see a Commissar as the 'investigative' type.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Why? The space-station/space-port is a little like Emperors Island on Acreage or Port Suffering on Iocanthos, thus not strictly part of the planets own administration and jurisdication. It is the only true Imperial outpost in the system and thus more directly part of Imperial administration and jurisdication whereas the planet has more local laws and customs as well as Enforcers. The reason the security is mainly in the hands of Navy personnel and overall responsibility is in the hands of a Navy officer is due to the system being in the periphery (and in the area of some seperatist activity) and due to its 'history'.

Luthor Harkon said:

Oh, there's plenty of room to rationalise something like that - the laws and traditions of the Imperium are full of such variations and apparent contradictions (the planet I set my campaign on during the early stages of the playtest had the PDF forces under the direct command of the Adeptus Arbites stationed on the planet, as per an ancient agreement at the end of a rebellion - it's not orthodox, but it's possible)... but I believe that, in the majority of cases, the Imperial Navy have as much interaction with local/planetary matters as the Imperial Guard do - they're an external force, raised for and loyal to the Imperium of Man first, foremost and only, with local matters beneath their consideration. An "Imperial Outpost" type settlement like Emperor's Island or Port Suffering are forms of local governance, even if they might not actually govern the planets they're on, because they represent a significant point of contact between planetary matters and the concerns of the Subsector or Sector.

As I see it, the Departmento Munitorum chains of command run parallel to the 'civilian' sector authorities - a chain of Admirals and Generals and military logisticians that stretch from the non-comissioned personnel, to the junior officers of Imperial Guard regiments and the line officers of Navy warships, to company and regimental commanders and naval commodores, to crusade authorities and officers assigned to oversee operations in a given sector, right up to the Lord Commanders Militant of each Segmentum Majoris, and then the High Lords of Terra themselves.

Thus, within the Calixis Sector, Lord Hax really has no official authority over the deployment of Imperial Navy or Imperial Guard forces - his authority is civilian, not military, and similarly he has no direct official authority over religious, psychic or Mechanicus matters within the Calixis Sector. For practical purposes, he works closely with the Sector Admiralty responsible for Battlefleet Calixis and the Lord Generals responsible for the Imperial Guard within the Sector (both of whom in turn report to their own superiors at Segmentum Command, in this case on distant Cypra Mundi), along with representatives of every other branch of Imperial Authority with interests in the Sector.

Commisars have absolute authority.

Thier word is absolute, and they have the power to execute anyone,or, as the Euphanism goes, " Dispence the Emporers Benidiction to anyone found wanting."

The Commisar is one of the most fearsome sights a commander can have. If they lose a battle, they will most likely be executed. If they deave to deeply into the Regimental stores, they may be executed for gluttony.

etc. etc. etc.

As for Imperial civilians. No one will cross an Imperial guard regiment, let alone the Commisariate.

With thier power, Commisars are strict adherants to procedural, and answer to the Commisariate.

They are not part of the Imperial Chain of Command. Think of them as the unswerving disciplanarian, Morally unwavering, and above and beyond the normal law.

They have thier own policing powers, and the Commisariate inadvertantly has its ways of moderating its commisars.

They have thier own type of chain of command, and they have thier own moderations.

References- Imperial Uplifting Primer.

Codex: Imperial Guard

Gaunts Ghosts novels

Ciphas Cain novels

The Uplifting Primer has spoken. lol

Though as the Gaunts Ghosts novels illustrate, there is no such thing as a "typical" or "by the book" Commissar.

@Grot6

Precisely the Cain novels make it pretty clear that the commissar's authority over non-guard units exists primarily during war-time when martial law is instituted. After all, that's exactly what it means: Civilians are now judged the same way as members of the military.

I would presonally caution referencing the Uplifting Primer too much. It's a fun book, however it is just that, fun. It was designed to be tounge and cheek military/propaganda humor. Not that there isn't anything valid in it, but let's face it, if the Guard functioned to the letter by many of those regulations, there wouldn't be much of The Guard left. While needlessly eleminated military personel are part of the overall dark background of 40K and a reality, it's not the norm. You may have a vast resource but it's limited and could run strained if proper care is not taken.

In the long run it's up to the GM as to how he wants to see things and what he uses.

I don't want to derail the discussion (although there seem to enough information here for almost anyone), but I was wondering: who has authority over commissars?

Other commissars. The most usual option for commissars who stray from regulations too much or go off the deep end is to restrain them and bring them before a tribunal of their peers (usually three or five of the most senior ones you can reach) who decide what to do with them.

Hey... I haven't played DH yet (though I want to) and I'm no expert on the Imperium, but I can give a little information about how commissars worked in the Red Army in WWII, which is what I assume they're based on. Obviously this info doesn't necessarily apply 100% to the 40K universe, but might be a good starting point for thinking about it.

A commissar was a "political officer", but he existed outside of the normal chain of command. A commissar had to be a member of the Communist Party and be dedicated to its ideals. There was a command structure among commissars, but this chain of command was parallel to and independent of the military chain of command. Thus the commissar was essentially a Communist Party official who was allowed to stick his nose into the conduct of military operations.

The commissar's main responsibilities were to ensure adequate political indoctrination, promote good morale (of a specifically proletarian sort) and most of all make sure that the officer he was watching over was doing things properly, both in the sense of following communist teachings and doing what the Party wanted him to do.

Within the TO&E, the commissar and his staff comprise a headquarters element. The smallest unit to have an attached commissar was the company (a company is commanded by a captain and is composed of platoons each led by a lieutenant; platoons are further subdivided into squads, etc.). Thus above the several company commissars in a battalion would be the battalion commissar himself, who was attached to the battalion HQ. Above the battalion commissar would be whichever commissar was in charge of the regiment, and so on up to the "top brass". So you might think of it as a parallel officer corps, where the lowest rank is captain.

Probably the two most famous Red Army commissars of WWII were Nikita Khrushchev and Leonid Brezhnev, both of whom ended up running the Soviet Union later in life.

This structure makes an interesting contrast with the other big totalitarian player in WWII, Nazi Germany. The Germans did not use political officers as such. Instead, the Nazi Party had its own entirely separate army, the Waffen SS. The SS had its own divisions, its own commanders, its own resources and was basically just a wholly separate entity from the Heer (the regular German army). Of course, the higher commands (Germany had several "top brass" groups that essentially competed for favor politically within Hitler's administration) had to then juggle these two separate organizations (army and SS) and have them somehow work together in military operations (not helped by the fact that they usually didn't like each other very much). This is kind of similar to the situation of the Imperium having totally distinct military organizations such as the Space Marines and the Sisters (please not that I'm not comparing them to the SS except insofar as they are autonomous military organizations).

Anyway, perhaps that helps.

Requete said:

It's good stuff. Actually, if you watch/read the beginning of The Hunt for Red October , the "political officer" in that Captain Ramius gaks at the beginning is a Comissar. His role in the submarine is primarily to ensure that the orders are obeyed (hence why he had to die), but secondary is to make certain that counter-revolutionary thought is suppressed (extra-important in such a closed environment), and tertiary to make certain that nobody aboard is taken alive and no technology is left salvagable in case the sub is a loss (this is only because of the prototypical nature of the sub - normally in the Soviet Union the requirement of the Comissar is to be likable enough to be trusted, which means not forcing anybody to go down with the ship).

One of the major weaknesses in the C&C of the Red Army is its dependance on their political officers. They held the orders, and they had to bless every action of the commanding officer (although they could not issue orders on their own). Thus, if the political officer is lost, the unit is useless (as the ship's medical officer tries to enforce at the beginning of the movie/book but gets overruled in an offense that would've gotten the captain shot when he got back, regardless of whatever else he did). The political officer was both a mandatory fixture and utterly powerless - as he points out, if there were any KGB aboard to supplement his efforts, he would be the last to know. He could issue no orders, and could not violate the orders handed to him. The only thing he could do is speak up if the commanding officer violated orders. Commissars in the Imperium have considerably more power (doubling in role with the KGB plants who would often "silently execute" suspected traitors), but their function in many IG units are probably close to the same.

It is interesting though when all said and done that in Shattered Hope, you never talk to the Commanding Officer, but only to the Commisar who promptly orders troops. And concidering Cain's rather grandeous actions in the past, this is obviously not a simple isolated case, but almost seems to be the norm.

My guess would be that technically on paper its much like Requette and Pneumonica have said, but in reality when the commisar has pretty much unlimited power within his direct perview to execute anyone on a whim, you have a tendency to listen to what he says. He may not technically be giving orders, but even his "suggestions" are going to be listened to, and as a Commisar gains more an more power within a unit those polite suggestions begin to sound more and more like orders, even if technically they're just "suggestions".

This is what I gather.

In general the upper echelons of the Commissariat control Commissars at large and regulate their activities within the military. They are the Commissar's ultimate authority.

Commissars are also under the control of the highest ranking officers in the Imperial military, such as a Lord Commander in charge of a theatre of war, or a Warmaster in charge of a Crusade or other large scale military action. It's also possible for a Commissar to be under the authority of a high ranking non-military individual. This could be anything from a planetary govener, ranking member of the Imperial government., or an Inquisitor. Indeed if anyone outside of the Commissariat has full authority over a Commissar, it would be the Ordos of the Inquisition.

Unless otherwise assigned, a Commissar generally reports to an officer of rank in a position of authority like a General in the Guard, or ship captain in the Navy as per their assignments. This includes Commissars personally assigned to said officer, and ones that are stationed in the rank and file. While for military purposes Commissars are treated like other officers under a commander. However all commanding officers are aware that while they may nominally have authority over a Commissar, they too are under his/her scrutiny. Because of this, military officers err to caution when dealing with their political officers.

If a Commissar is also an officer in one of the branches of the military, such as Commissar-Colonel Gaunt, he is under direct command of superior officers as per a person of their rank. Because they are Commissar-Officers they don't get any special privilage, however they are respected in the fact that they have the potential to exercise greater authority. Of course said Commissar-Officer would have a lot of explaning to do if such a situation came up.

Here is my take on the matter:

Commissars are agents of Departmento Munitorum; and only by extension , the Adeptus Administratum. The Departmento deals in the logistics of classically waged Imperial war. That includes the supply, administration, and command of fighting and martially ruled Imperials.

Whilst the Departmento has agents to uphold supply, usually robed, stuffy, unimaginative quill pushers with a military bent, and while the Departmento has agents to uphold administration, who are the logistics workers that decide which regiments are assigned where, and in what strength; the Departmento also has a type of agent to uphold the command of Imperial forces. That is a commissar.

They are not part of the Imperial command structure directly; as it is the Generals and Lord-Generals and whatnot who plan the battles (Though commissars often act as strategic aides). Simply put: It is not a commissar's duty to make the commands of a battle, it is only to see that those commands are made and followed efficiently. This is a great responsibility, and confers many privileges. A Commissar, in upholding the chain of command, and by extension the laws and restrictions of the Imperial Guard, as well as morale; they are allowed to be Judge, Jury, and of course Executioner of any activity that they find in violation of the efficient operation of the forces of the Imperial Guard. Civilians may fall under this umbrella if it so happens that their activity even vaguely relates to said efficient operation. Thus, being in a combat zone as a civilian, is to be judged by a Commissar.

I believe that this is an efficiently produced and accurate depiction of the Glorious Commissariat of the Departmento Munitorum of the Adeptus Administratum of the Adeptus Terra of the Imperium of Mankind- Beneath the Benevolent Gaze of Him Upon the Throne, The Holy God-Emperor of Mankind.

The Emperor Protects.

Nojokejoe45 said:

Unless, for some reason as a "civilian" you actually fall under a different chain of command, such as the Frateris Militia or the Inquisition.

Now of course the question ends up being, how do you describe a civilian in these contexts.

Also to answer the question who has authority over the commissars... other Commissars of higher rank and position and the Inquisition of course.

I think as in many of these cases where agents of highly separate and autonomous byzantine organizations challenge each others authority; it is either up to the judgment and/or agreement of the agents themselves, where commissars should be picking their summary executions carefully, or the dispute is taken to a higher level, at which point mountains of bureaucracy and the great archives of the Lex Imperialis and the Book of Judgment would come into play.

Of course, by that point it's a pissing match of authority and technicalities, and the GM should have fun with this.

Sorry but 2 of your Claims are not true

Requete said:

The NKWD troops were an independent formation, parallel to the red army.

warpdancer said:

Fair enough... I'm not very familiar with the NSFOs. I'll have to look into them.

As far as the NKVD... yes, it did have its own rifle formations in a seperate and parallel organization. But it wasn't fielding its own armored divisions... the SS was practically a second army. The NKVD formations were not significant by comparison.

AFAIK the NKWD troops operated as security units to prevent the red army from retreting, it seems they´d far more leeway and free hand then the SS in this case, but i could totally wrong with an singular case