Just a quick question. I understand a commissar has VERY broad authority within the imperial guard, but how does his authority translate to civilians in a non combat zone?

Nothing. Their a military position so they have no authority over civilians.

Don't turn around...the commissar's in town...

My terribad attempt at comedy aside a commissar's authority over civilians would have to be expressed via his political influence over the government that said civilian lived under. While a commissar wouldn't have direct authority in most non-combat/martial law situations I am sure that his nearly limitless authority over the local imperial military is not lost on the local planetary governors/despots/councils/etc. This slight skip in the flow of power is more than enough to protect civilians for mundane things but if a commissar had a vendeta to follow through on with a citizen you had better bet that his personal vox line to the governor's ear would start tweeting.

GreyKnight666 said:

Or, if you wanted you could say that the Imperium has no civilians, only soldiers in support roles. From the glorious Mothers of the Emperor, endlessly toiling to produce the next generation of troopers in their wombs to the heroic rememberancers telling tales to inspire the troops, all contribute to the war effort, citizen.

Which would give them as much clout as they have over soldiers. Although you might have a conflict with the heroic civili er, no, maybe non-combata no thats no good either as their glorious sturggle is every bit as important to the combat. How about Factory-Soldiers own political officers.

Even nursaries could have their own commissars, to watch over the Mother-Soldiers.

Dezmond said:

Dezmond said:

Scary, I could that take in a direction of communist russia on bad acid

Commissars have authority over civilians as soon as martial law is invoked - which will be the case more often than not in places that receive guard regiments.

If I remember correctly, the position of Commissar is a political position more so than a military position. As such, the Commissar is a civilian with authority over military matters. In a war zone, the military leaders are in charge. A Commissar's role is to provide political guidance to those officers as well as inspiration to the troops. Additionally, they also serve as legal authority independent of the chain of command. So, if a civie screws up in a war zone and are not under the jurisdiction of someone higher than a Colonel, I'd figure the Commissar's authority is pretty absolute. Heck, in certain circumstances, a Commissar can even bring down a general (Gaunt is a good example of this in the last part of the Founding). However, a Commissar's authority over another Commissar only applies to Cadets or based off seniority/attachment. From what I understand, that's when they have tribunals (His Last Command).

Of course that varies by Commissar style. Cain would avoid most of that crap if he could get away with it. Yarrick is pretty hands on and hard core.

A Commissar is a military officer who belongs to a completely different service. Thus they are on Naval ships, and with Guard Units. Their basic responsibly is maintaining their units right thinking, attention to duty, and adherence to imperial law. While they don't command in traditional sense they can execute people for failure to perform their duty, cowardice, and the like. As for civilians they don't have any authority over, but nothing stops them from enforcing imperial law if no one else is. But they'd generally go through channels or face the wrath of their higher ups. (Of course in the case of martial law or the breakdown of civilian authority I doubt anyone would might.) Also a commissar suggesting an action to a guardsman carries a lot of wieght.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Commissars

To say it from the perspective of a disgruntled rank-and-file Guardsman, "The Commisar's job is to shoot their fellow Guardsmen until morale improves." Which is functionally what they do - they ensure that loyalty to the cause is maintained, and have lethal authority to fulfill it.

The Commisariat has no authority over any PDF unless the Guard has gained control of the given PDF, in which case they'll send Comissars to ensure the PDF works "fluidly" with the Imperial Guard. Indeed, many PDFs have their own Commisariat. To me, this means that the Commisariat has no authority whatsoever over the civilian population of a planet unles Imperial authority mandates martial law (and not the planetary authority, in which case the PDF is the one in charge of maintaining law and not the Guard).

This actually leads to another question, I'm going to search for it but if I don't find it I'll coin a new thread to ask.

The Commissariat I thought were assigned by the Ministorum to oversee trouble regiments or special cases. They generally have absolute authority over the regiment they are assigned to oversee. When in doubt about whether a Guard Officer or a Commissar has final say it can generally be determined by rank. After all, there are Commissar-Captains and Commissar-Colonels. Their clout outweighs that of an officer of same rank within the regiment officially; though even a Governor Militant/General will tread lightly when a "simple" Commissar is about.

Remember though, for as much authority as a Commissar may have, they are generally the first to find out about mutiny and betrayal; often at the end of massed lasrifle blasts.

As stated by a previous poster - I should think most Commisars will be operating in a warzone where martial law has been declared (or taken as red) - in whihc case I would assume they have authority over anyone (apart from exceptions below) - how they choose to exercise that to ensure that "accidents" don't happen to them is their choice. Even in Warzones I would think that a Commissar has no authority over Astartes, Sisters of Battle, Inquisitional forces, Adeptus Mechaincus Skitari etc.

re civilians and PDF forces - from the fluff I have read it seems the Regular forces usually look down on the humble pdf and the pdf usually defers to true Guard authority - so I would say that a Commissar has full authority over them. The interesting case of the entire planets official Challiced Commissariat offciers in a warzone who were executed by the true Guard Commissariat I think nicely shows how much power a Commissar has over non Guard units in a warzone (Inquistors Handbook)

In a warzone I would think the Imperium takes the view there are no civilians - only servants of the emperor fighting the enemy who again they fall under the Commissars authority, refugees under the Guard protection (ditto) and traitors - Bang.

Outside a warzone - I would say he would not have that authority - technically - but would be regarded (soemwhat incorrectly) by the civilians as a senior Imperial Guard Officer.....his percieved level of authority would depend on who he was dealing with (and his backup if any). A high born noble in his home being less impressed than a pickpocket in a hive.

As noted by Amberley in the Cain novels - they are outside the Imperial Guard Structure - which she says is kinda the point

I am going to throw my two thrones in on the matter of "What is a Commisar" along with my take on the thread subject. This is what I've gathered from reading fluff over the years. I make apology ahead of time if some of my facts are incorrect or not cannon.

The Comistrat is set up by default as military overseers and advisors as a part of the Administratum and Ecclesiarchy. It is a part of all of the Imperial military forces, yet by default belong to their own branch of service. They are tied in with the Ecclesiarchy on the grounds of religious involvement in the military. Since they deal with theats to the army, by extention (though not usually directly) they are tied into the Inquisition as well.

Their default First job is to make sure the morale of their assigned position is maintained, as well as the following all Imperial and Military laws (both religious and secular). Under this job they stand as a part of military security. Everything from the MP's to military intelligence. It would not be out of the ordinary to have a Commissar in charge of an NCIS team or Imperial Security. This is instance where they may have limited civillian command since sometimes said agencies may employ "civilians". Of course they are also the famous "battlefield authority" when assigned to military units that we all know and love. However as much as they are touted for their "jackbook authority", they tend to not always rely on such drastic measures. Unless it's a battle, or other conflict situation, a good Commissar will investigate and consider options before meeting out instant judgement. Indesciminate executing of military personel attracts unwanted attention.

Their Second job is to make sure that everyone under their charge follows the religious doctrines of The Imperial Cult and enforce the Imperial Creed. They are as much chaplain as they are enforcer. Though he is feared, the Commisar acts as religious advisor and counciler to the forces under his charge. If someone has a problem of faith, or just a personal problem in general, if the proper advisors are unavailable (which in most military campaigns is often the case) they speak and gain advice from the Commisar. This is not the stereotypical image of the jackbooted "kill you if you don't follow" neigh evil in zeal authority figure who takes no crap from anyone. While this is true to an extent, the Commissar makes it a point to foster a relationship of support amongst those in his charge. This also leads to increasing the fear a Commisar generates in a subtle way. Sure the Commisar took time to listen to your problems, took your confessions, and proscribed the proper edicts to absolve yourself of what is wrong with you, and in turn put you back into the Emperor's light. Nine and a half times out of ten this does not lead to a bolt in your skull, though you may be put through absolutions and/or punnishment. However now the Commisar knows something personal about you, he knows everything about you, and knows the right time to give you that nice bolt to the back of your head when you truly step out of line. You could put yourself in line without seeing the Commissar, however that would only make him more suspicious of you, so it's best to report to him when he calls you for personal review. Only the Commisar knows when it's your time and place to go, and that's the way he likes it. Commissars are chareged with being able to run religious services in the absence of Ecclesiarchy preists or other established religious figures.

Their Third job is to watch out for any "weird stuff" happening under their charge, and to either deal with it as they see fit, or report it to people who can deal with it (I.E the Inquisition via the Commistrat/Administratum). This goes from everyone from Geneals to Privates, to military support organizations. Again this is another situation where civilians may be involved under Commisar authority. If something is beyond the ordinary, it's the Commissars job to investigate, and if neesseary eliminate the problem. If it's one or a few people that he has to deal with, he can usually handle it on his own. If it is something greater and he has to bring in fellow Commissars, the MP's, and if nessesary the rest of the army. Sometimes it's something really big, or a really weird situation (such as certian xenos envolvement or daemonic involvement) he must call on higher authorities through The Commistrat such as The Inquisition. This can happen in matters where he cannot directly act, are very dangerous, or if things are way out of hand. This also makes for a great DH scenario basis too. It's also quite possible for a Commissar to be an acolyte or trusted team member of an Inquisitor, an inquisition agent/friendly, or in an extremly rare instance an Inquisitor himself. However this sort of involvement is entriely secret and unofficial. The Commistrat more than likely does not openly recognize any Inquisitional authority that one of their own posesses, and could be quite hostile towards it.. Despite the details, the Commistrat has deep connections with the Inquisition and frequently calls upon help in matters. Some believe they are more than just connected.

By default the rank of a Commissar an odd position due to his office. Automatically he is equivalent to a Colonel by default and respected as such. However unlike a conventional officer he has a degree of authority within the higher command because of his ability to take command, along with his role as an advisor. He is considered somewhat of an equal, but not quite since he is by default not a "proper" officer. A default Commissar recognizes the authority of command and will follow orders or ranked officers and placed commanders, so long as they are acting within acceptable bounds. More often than not a Commissar's advisory role extends to officers and commanders as much if not more so than the common soldier. His/her opinion and advice often asked quite frequently on various matters. Sometimes a Commissar may be put into an upper echelon role as an advisor and/or field commander assigned to the highest command figures. Such is the case with Commissar Holt from "Final Liberation". This is more than often the case if a Commissar is also an officer in the military but not always. If a default Commisar is under the authority of a military ranked Commissar, the ranked Commissar is considered his superior.

All Commissars usually respect their fellows and treat them as equals if not brothers/sisters within the Commistrat. Each of them went through the same training They usually don't make it a point to step on their fellow's charges and authority unless it is emergency or battle conditions (and better have a **** good reason to do such). Normally disputes are taken up with several of their fellows, and ultimately with the higher authorities within the Commistrat (which may or may not eventually involve the Inquisition). However nothing is usual amongst the ranks of the watchers.

In instances in battle when an officer is not present, a Commissar has full authority to take his place on either a temporary or perminant basis. Perminant authority more often than not results in the Commissar eventually becoming a full fledged officer within the military branch that they serve.

It is quite frequent for a Commissar to hold or be assigned an officer's commission in the military. In many respects it's for convinience in dealing with standing in the military. Sometimes it is awareded for service. Sometimes it is granted to them for taking command. Sometimes the individual in question was already an officer when he/she joined the Commistrat to become a Commissar. Units, Batallions, Groups, Armies, Starships can all potentially be under the authority of a Commissar-Officer. Best example of course being Commisar-Colonel Gaunt.

To sum up The Commisar. A military sanctioned authoity figure that keeps everyone in line, advise and inspire those under his charge, in charge of military religious matters, fixes problems and meeds out punishment when needed, and deals with anything out of the ordinary. He is outside of the system, he is part of the system. They can be a companion, ally, or enemy to those working with the Inquisition.

Now to address the question posed in this thread. I personally don't think anything has been written yet officially to answer wether or not a Commissar has authority over civilians. However here is my take:

First there is the issue of PDF and paramilitary. Depending on how tied in with the Imperial Guard the PDF of any given world is, there may or may not be Commistrat involvement. Most PDF militaries will probably not have any involvement. However as suggested previously, suggested in worlds like Cadia where the Guard IS the PDF, then there will be involvement. If there is a circumstance where there are battle conditions involving the PDF and a Commissar is part of the action, he may become involved at the discression of a commanding officer, or if he can inspire the troops enough, will rally them to fight, perhaps taking temporary command in the process. He would be far more lenient with his authority due to the fact that he is not part of the system, however he will not hesitate to take care of an obvious problem.

Within civilian organizations and agencies he is respected, but has no more authority than other military personel. This is the same for the local Police and the Arbites. Again he may be looked at for help in a crisis situation, with varied degrees of authority. In the general civilian populus he would be seen as an authority figure and someone people don't screw with due to reputation. However nothing more than that. More than likely if a Commisar tries to go around noticeably trying to out of enforcement gain authority, even in a combat situation that is not out of hand, the Arbites will probably be called into action and his butt will be in the pokey for his own good; with time in a cell or hospital and a transmition to the military soon to follow.

As mentioned before, various agencies that are a part of, or are tied into the military that employ "civilians", said employees may come under the authority of a Commissar due to his roles in security or an officer standing (or both).

In a real crisses situation, a good Commissar can probably rally civilians into a defense force with him/her in the lead. However this would be a non-standard action rather than the norm.

Thanks for all the replies. It looks like I was on the right track with having the commissar attached to a regiment sending to an Inquisitor he knew personnally for someone to look into a probable cult he turned up on the planet they were on between campaigns. he will be turning over the regiment looking for any signs of involvement while the PCs will be investigaing the nearby city for civilian involvement in the cult. I had been pretty sure that his authority ended with the regiment but I wanted to double check it. Clockworkgeckos info was particularly usefull for me.

@Praetus

The Commissariat I thought were assigned by the Ministorum to oversee trouble regiments or special cases. They generally have absolute authority over the regiment they are assigned to oversee. When in doubt about whether a Guard Officer or a Commissar has final say it can generally be determined by rank. After all, there are Commissar-Captains and Commissar-Colonels. Their clout outweighs that of an officer of same rank within the regiment officially; though even a Governor Militant/General will tread lightly when a "simple" Commissar is about.

This is not quite correct. A commissar is usually just that. There are no ranks inside the organisation (apart from cadet and full commissar) and they have no rank equivalent in the guard. Indeed, the entire point of the office is that they are outside the chain of command and can thus be placed wherever it is appropriate.

The double rank of Commissar-Colonel (let's call the most prominent holder of this title Mr G.) is highly unusual - they're not the commanders of units, but those who watch the commanders and step in when they make a mistake.

Also, the Commissars are assigned by the Munitorum, not the Ministorum, and they're generally assigned to almost every regiment with a few exceptions (like for example Catachans, who have a natural tendency of their commissars dieing heroically in fulfillment of their duty - even when the nearest foe is several miles away...)

It seems (regarding the above video) the authority of a Commissar is rather broad. Actually, I asked myself recently (during DH session) who an Imperial Navy Commander (in charge of an orbital station) would contact if he has indications of heretical activity (spontaneous combustion of a corpse lying in the Navy medicae-facility) on the station. The station is under jurisdication of the Navy (with Navy security personnel) and not the Magistratum. In the end I decided he would involve the local Adeptus Arbites and not the Commissariat, as the former somehow fit better countering heretical activity than the latter. Am I right?

There is a second Commissariat for Navy units. Also, the Arbites are pretty much the guys I wouldn't have thought about concerning heretic activity - they're mainly busy with "mundane" crime, fighting heresy only when it happens to crop up during their investigations.

Also, your description (evidence of wyrd powers) sounds less like normal-day-heresy (which one would probably get a commissar to deal with) and more like full Ordo Hereticus territory.

Luthor Harkon said:

Commissar Holt is an attached advisor and commander general of the army to the Lord Commander (PC in "Final Liberation") putting him in a very high position of command. Do keep in mind that these are wartime conditions and that the planetary governor-lord is supposed to also be commander of the planetary forces and some of the Guard, and has been doing a rather piss poor job, hence making everyone's job more difficult. Because of this, a Commissar on the authority of his superior would step in to see that things are put back into hand, where under better circumstances a different course of action would be taken. Sometimes a smidgen of the jackboot and a solid threat is all that is needed to solve the situation. Do take note that Holt didn't outright shoot the governor. This is the enigma of the Commissar, you never know how he will react, so people tend to comply. Of course that's the way the Commissar likes it.

It probably stands to reason that typical heretical activity within the military or effecting the military, would be reported directly to the Commissar/Naval Secuity. If there is no assigned Commissar and/or Naval Securtity presence is low, at the commanding officer's discretion/need/preference in cooperation with the NavSec commanding officer, the Arbites may be called in to assist as additional securtity and investigators.

In matters of things not being normal, the Commissar is the first person reported to. From there the Commissar handles the show with Naval Security/NCIS. If there is no assigned Commissar, NavSec is still in charge (no matter it's size) and by proceedure would call in a Commissar and investigation team while handling the case . In an emergency situation, non standard situation, or situation with limited personel, the Arbites may be called in to help out, however unless circumstances warrent, would not have much more involvement with NavSec being the top dogs in the matter.

Of course nothing goes by the book and sometimes officers may not go with proceedure in matters.

It's quite possible that a team of talented individuals connected with the Inquisition may be called into the mix. Say if that incoming Commissar and NCIS team is delayed and "The Team" is closer.

This is my take on it. Take it as you wish.

Cifer said:

Actually, spontaneous combustion sounds about like the kind of crime the Arbiters would be used for. One of their duties is to insure that psykers are rounded up and that sounds a heck of a lot like possibly psyker activity (that's all they are mentioned doing on Iocanthus). Beyond that, the Arbiters are the guys you call when heresy is afoot. They are cult busters (that seems to sum up their duties mentioned on Sepherus Secondus).

They are like the Ordo Hereticus only with restrictions. By the very definition of what they do, they hunt heretics and stop heresies. If their only concern is the upholding of Imperial Law and breaking Imperial Law is heresy ;-)

Heck, the Commissars kind of remind me of Arbiters for the Imperial Guard.

Cifer said:

I was always under the impression that there was only one Commissariat, who oversaw all operations within the Departmento Munitorum (including, but not limited to, the Imperial Guard and Imperial Navy). There may well be a practical distinction between Commissars deployed to watch the officers and crews of warships and those fighting on the ground with the Guard (if only one of training and familiarity with expected combat roles), but the organisation is the same, as far as I'm aware.

Cifer said:

Heresy is a Crime Against The Emperor (for heresies go against the Emperor's Law), and thus Crime itself is a Heresy - or at least, I can imagine some taking that viewpoint. The Arbites are specifically and primarily concerned with upholding and enforcing the Lex Imperialis to the letter. Given that the Lex Imperialis is a system of laws with ten thousand years of precedents and exceptions, covering the vagaries of a million or more worlds and their constituent cultures and the interpreted and reinterpreted decrees and rulings made by the Emperor in times now long past, it's unlikely that any matter is clear-cut.

On the other hand, "Mundane crime", such as local law determined on a sector, subsector, system or planetary level, is a matter beneath Arbites intervention.

Cifer said:

The Commissariat (thank you for the proper way to put it, I was in error), as I recall, is one military organization that serves all branches of the military. Though Commissars in each branch of service have their own "chain of command", attitudes, skills, outlook, and traditions defining them as practically being in "multiple Commissariats". While they serve under the same branch of the military, Commissars of the Navy will have a different way of things than their Guard fellows (and going even further than that internally say between Planetary bound Naval Commissars, Commissars in NCIS, and those that serve on starships).

However being what they are, they are still part of the same organization, and could take command or enforce anywhere in the military. Though this scenario would make it tough on an Guard Commissar trying to take over a starship, for example, on many levels. However this is nothing new to a Commissar who may go from being a default Commissar attached to a Guard unit, to a military commander in a single campaign. They make it a point to try and adapt despite the difficulties.

I do agree that unless summoned, the Arbites don't get involved in military matters. However since they exist as more of a governmental police force within the Imperium, they will probably be brought into military matters a lot easier than planetary law enforcement. They also deal with more heretical actions in the course of their work than the local cops, so dealing with heresy is nothing new to them.

The Commissariat it is said through rumor, was set up in part by the Imperium at large to be an extention of the Inquisition to deal with military matters. Wether this is true or not is a mystery. The Commissariat's full involvement with the Ordos has yet to be entirely written cannonly, and could be the subject of a future publication.

However if there is a matter that involves deep influence of the warp and/or ruinous powers that can't be delt with, the Commissariat calls in the Inquisition. One can only do so much, however one can do quite a bit. Look at it this way, Commissars are in general essence not different than Acolytes. If an Acolyte can handle it, so can a Commissar. Probably moreso because he has organized training to deal insurrection, weird s!#t, and has military and governmental support readilly at his fingertips.

This could make for an interesting situation where PC's are assigned to a Commissar who doesn't think highly of their skills after review and considers them rank amatures in dealing with matters. Of course this could be a grinding issue, or it could be an excuse for a more temper mineded Commissar to help the PC's and give them needed advice. Maybe even convince a PC or two that has potential to speek with their master about joining the Commissariat. In this case it would not be a hard leap to say that many Commissars may have started as Acolytes to an Inquisitor.

Graver said:

True on all accounts. Commissars are part of Military Security as a whole, their duties do mirror the Judges within the Arbiters, and then some. In many respects they are also like all the Ordos, though restricted in many ways. More like an Acolyte that has the canny and a lot of experience of his master, resources at his fingertips, yet is not involved in the bigger picture.

Heretics and heresies are only some of the things that a Commissar must deal with. Given their positions they are much more.

In fact it could be better said, tied in with rumor, that while it may not be in word or attitude, the Commissariat is another Inquisitional Order that is limited in background, but can command a lot of resources off hand, and has other duties that go beyond many of the other Ordos.

Commisars only have real authority over non-military personel during a state of martial law, otherwise their authority is much more limited to being on par with the authority of any given military officer over a civilian, which is functional but not sweeping.

It is made clear in the Cain novels that the PDF generally has only one commisar for the whole planet, or in cases of sparsely populated planets a single commisar for dozens of worlds that never see him/her. Though any commisar showing up would be able to weild their authority unless countered by their presiding commisar.

A lot of interesting interpretations and great ideas so far. My question remains: Would a Navy Commander in charge (at least he is responsible for the security) of an orbital space station (taht is mainly used for civilan purposes like trade and travel) call in the Adeptus Arbites or the Commissariat when having indications of heretical or psyker/sorcery activity (like the sudden combustion of a civilian corpse)?

After all, the corpse is a civilian an the station is not as such under martial law. The Adeptus Arbites is normally responsible for keeping heretical or psyker activity in check, but the Navy (as part of the Departmento Munitorum) is in charge of the station (no Magistratum) so the Commissariat comes into mind regarding jurisdication of miltary matters... I am a little confused.

Luthor Harkon said:

The Arbites. The Commissar's primary responsibility is to oversee the loyalty and moral purity of the men (the commander included), and nothing else.

To be honest, though, such a situation seems unlikely - an orbital facility that serves the planet below would, as far as I'm aware, generally be operated by personnel from the planet itself. Even when it comes to an attached fleet, it's more likely to be a Planetary Defence matter (PDF defence ships) than an Imperial Navy detachment. Imperial Navy facilities (such as Port Maw in the Gothic sector) tend instead to be devoted to supporting the actions and interests of the Navy itself.