Donovan Morningfire said:

If time and immediate success are no object would you make them roll to activate Move in the first place? I'm not sure about this one. My inclination is to say no roll in the first place.

Can't they just keep rolling until they get what they want or do they have to take the first roll?

Pilots don't roll to turn on a ship but many non-pilots can't do it. Is there no given level of Force ability? And if so, why not moving a tiny object a few feet away for as long as you can concentrate?

usgrandprix said:

Well, moving a tiny object such as a fruit a few feet over to the plate of your crush is pretty trivial.

Moving a wooden throne and protocol droid several feet through the air while the natives are getting ready to prep your best friend as the main course, not so much.

Although, I suppose a Control Upgrade to allows one to use the Move Basic Power as maneuver without needing a Force roll would be a suitable replacement for a Range Upgrade.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well, most big box RPG companies use Free RPG Day as a means of promoting products due for release within a few months. Putting out a free RPG a couple years before the related product is slated for release won't do that, as by the time the product comes out, most folks have forgotten the free RPG item.

Donovan Morningfire said:

True enough, but I think a one off Clone Wars adventure could be both cool in and of itself and show how the system is going to do 'real' Jedi.

Virtually all my responses, which you call "rants", are just showing that frequently your offered 'rebuttals' really don't hold up to much scrutiny, and are followed by reversals in statement. As you've stated before, you view documented point-by-point review of your logical arguments' shortcomings as offensive and "nit-picky", even when they really don't add up. You've accused me of lacking decency in failing to find a common ground on topics and failing to "agree to disagree", but then accuse me of ranting, and spend 3 paragraphs saying that an idea I've offered is wrong because we draw the line about what EU is appropriate in a different place. You seem to have more animosity than I do when it comes to being bitter about reading opposing viewpoints here, and I've NEVER sent a hostile PM to someone because I didn't like what they said to make a difference of opinion personal. Succinctly:

Kettle, Pot.

And it's true: I haven't seen you post about the concepts above, but you did post about Togorians, Verpine, Squibs, Chiss, and even Miraluka, in addition to other aliens from the EU, so you seem to think that some EU does have a place in this game. In that point of view, I think this is definitely a situation where we have different opinions on a minor point: Where to draw the line as far as what's appropriate from EU. But, if you want to continue to claim the force powers should only reflect what we see in the movies, then influence's strain inflicting control upgrade doesn't belong here either. Where in the movies was the force used to make someone tired or knock them out? (Pretty sure Vader's force choke doesn't count.) I don't remember seeing any your posts about those should be removed, so it seems there's implicit contradiction in your statements.

I'd maintain that the upgrade I proposed is pretty small. I do think it makes sense as an extension of the power and would be in line with the presentation of Force in the examples you've cited. The idea is its easier to keep something up after its lifted. This is not Starkiller. It's easily something we could have seen Luke do during the movies, the situation simply never arose. Places this would be used would include:

• Holding up an object to drop pursuers, as an ambush, which could take multiple rounds.
• Holding up a gate while friends escaped, which would take multiple rounds
• Holding up an object to provide cover for multiple rounds.

These are things that, yes, could require multiple activations, but for a force exile who specialized in telekinesis (and under the current rules, this a force user that can toss a YT-1300 at Long Range as an attack), the upgrade would let them maintain the lift with less effort. And, like many of the force upgrades, this is intended to be used in structured combat game-play whatever you want to call it, not necessarily in narrative situation.

• As far as the "alleged math", and 3PO example, I did consider the use dark side points, but decided not to include them because:
• Luke didn't appear stressed or desperate using the ability. He was quite calm.
• Luke was on the planet to save his father from the dark side, and its explicit in the book that constantly calling on the dark side has nasty consequences.
• Luke probably used something like the "Clear Your Mind" action/maneuver I posted previously and was tossing more than 3 FR anyway.

Really, Luke's motivations are irrelevant here, anyway. The point was that based on the scenario you built, and your conclusions "FR 3 can do this reliably round-for-round" were wrong, meaning that your argument for why this is how it's done is meaningless. Nothing more, nothing less. Although you've moved onto saying this doesn't matter because it's not what is happening anyway. First you said characters of a certain FR are be able to do something round-for-round, and then you say it doesn't matter. Please make up your mind on this, it's another example of your contradictory arguments. I also think it's pretty disingenuous to claim that its "reliable", if you have to be invoking dark side points frequently to maintain it.

If you don't trust the math, that's not really my problem. Prove me wrong if you disagree. I can send you 50k simulated dice rolls if you prefer that support that percentage (32.5%).

Then you bring up Sutter's point about "we don't see sith or Jedi holding things up for extended times" after you've pointed out we've narratively seen sith and Jedi and holding things up for extended times. Again, please make up your mind. And if you don't think we see them doing this, why is it your fundamental interpretation of the move power that TK'd objects being held aloft until the end of the next round, when they can have the power applied to them again. If you really think we don't see the Jedi and Sith doing this, then the power would stop acting on the object at the end of the character's turn. Holding things up would require an upgrade to the power.

-WJL

So Abbreviated:

• You say there are no examples of this in movies, I respond there don't need to be
• You say force powers have to conform to what's in the movies I respond that there are already examples of force power uses not in the movies [influence to cause strain].
• You say some EU topics are okay and others verbotten, I say it's nothing more than a matter of opinion.
• You say Jedi and Sith haven't been seen to do this with TK, I respond its silly to think they haven't.
• You say this is already handled narrative, I say there exist not infrequent situations in combat where this would be useful.
• You say I lack decency and rant, I say look in the mirror.

If it's so important to you that I agree-to-disagree or see a different view (which I'm willing to do in normal discourse, but not when I'm being sent personal attacks), why can't you see other people post in different ways and they shouldn't be expected to accept answers at face value. If scrutiny of your point shows that its wrong, then it's wrong and not useful to an argument.

These are not attacks, they are statements of fact or opinion that disagree with your opinions. This is not escalation of some stupid ******* flame war, unless we keep lighting matches.

Basically, I'm tired of this ****. I'm stating in a public forum I'm willing to acknowledge differences of opinions without these ******* pissing matches anymore. I'm fine accepting your different points of view if you're fine accepting that people can use facts to point out inconsistencies in your argument.

-WJL

Hello everyone,

This thread has become unnecessarily heated. It has some valuable discussions in it, so I am going to lock it instead of deleting it outright. However, please try to keep things civil in the future.