I was sitting in bed last night, distracting myself from insomnia by wondering about our dear heretics. The inclusion of Race in Black Crusade interested me as soon as I heard about it. So far, it looks like we'll just have Humans and Astartes. It got me wondering… would daemons work as player characters? Maybe not strictly following the rules of the setting - Daemonettes and Bloodthirsters are cool, but playing a Horror makes little sense - and just getting the general feeling across, with a similar power level to the CSM.

The problem I see with Daemon PC’s is that Daemons are reflections of stored emotion. Other than Greater Daemons and (arguably) Heralds, there’s not a lot to your average Daemon. They have the potential to be quite 1-dimensional.

It could also be quite limiting for the campaign. Say you were playing a Bloodletter. Well… you couldn’t stand to have any Slaaneshi folks in the group, and if you ever left an area of high Warp activity you’d risk being sucked back into the warp.

Enslaved daemonic minions I could see – you’ve learnt their True Name, and thus control them – but as PC’s it might be quite difficult to pull off in a way that’s both true to the fluff and interesting for the player.

BYE

Pseudo-Daemonhood (Gift) turns the PC into an approximation of a Daemonette/Bloodletter/Plaguebearer or whatnot, right? What about granting that to a PC at start? Does that do what we're looking for?

I thought about this idea as well. I think it would be doable but would require a bit of work on the part of the player and GM, which would include some custom rules along with some development. I think that daemons could use a bit more development in 40K anyway, that is to say giving them more personality and variety in not only ability but in motivation and mental capacity. I could see, for example, a daemonette being more like a succubus than just a fighter - give her the ability to change forms, to influence minds, and the motivation (both in terms of desire and supernatural benefits) for seducing others and you could have a very interesting character.

I think in this context, you would want to make player character daemons heralds essentially - like lesser daemons but a bit more powerful and varied. I think I might be interesting to come up with a rule set for these daemon PC's. They could grow in power on he material plane as they cause more emotions associated with their patron deity or gain more followers. They might lose energy over time that has to be restored in some appropriate fashion - like a herald of Slaanesh gains energy from seducing mortals, sexual activity, giving and/or receiving pain or pleasure. A herald of Khorne might likewise gain energy from killing, causing anger or hatred, inciting violence, leading victorious battles, etc.

The daemon PC's would need to have human-like intellectual and reasoning ability, of course, but could also have a very inhuman mentality as well that might allow for interesting role playing opportunities. They would not go insane or become corrupted, but they may lose themselves at times to the emotions associated with their Chaos God and could perhaps resist with Willpower rolls. They could grow weaker from lack of emotions associated with their deity and might have to deal with instability, then again they may have mortal followers or allies who could summon them back if they are destroyed.

I think it could be fun to try.

Meh. IMO, Daemons, along with Necrons and certain other terrors that hunt in the night should remain the big terrors of the 40k 'verse. Handing these to players vastly humanizes them.

Seeten said:

Well, under the description of the Gift, the PC's mind and personality remain pretty much intact. Which is the big difference to a true Daemon. Minor Daemons are pretty much subsumed in to the overall personality of their patron God, even if they began as mortals. And the more unique entities all seem to be quite a bit too powerful, even for Advanced Archetypes (which all seem to bring BC up to Deathwatch levels of XP, The Trickster is more powerful still).

But in theory, it is still doable… anyone wanting to play Slaanesh should be required to read Fulgrim though. Say what you will about writing quality, but that book really gets it right, when it comes to what Slaanesh is about.

Now that I think about it, would a bound Daemonhost be a fun character?

I don't know about that.

But I suddenly recall, based upon readings of the HH novels, specifically The First Heretic, that possessed characters are probably going to happen before we're given rules for playing full-on minor daemons. Since in TFH, the process is presented more as a symbiosis, as opposed to the daemon climbing in to the Space Marine's flesh and straight up taking over.

The specifics of such a possession are probably different than the usual sort, of course.

In Black Crusade, Daemons are sorta already humanized. The sentient ones at least, the ones you can discuss, plan and bargain with. One of my players is a possessed psyker, his soul a merging of daemonic and human. His detachment from all things material makes him credible, for the time at least. He still manages to be … weird. Which is good.

To get the feel of how to play a possessed character/daemonhost look at CthulhuTech and the Tagers there, along with the new metamorphosis rules to become something even more alien.

I'm struggling to think of a way to make them something other than just a better CSM Sorcerer. And can you have a Khornate Daemonhost?

Hello!

There is always the possibility of playing non-alighmented or Independent Daemons, which are not that much focused in background. And as they are not so well refined as their God-serving cousins, they could be way more varied in form and spirit.

I think the old Realms of Chaos books had different origins for Daemons, but right now I do not have time to look them up. However, I think that GW is currently focused on their own four gods so much that not much will be done to the Independents. Nor they will allow FFG probably do anything about them, sadly. T

This idea is nice, and I think playing a Daemon would be definently intresting. Yet the daemons of four gods should be left nonplayable, as they are too much forced to their own paths (and 40k needs their own Eldrich Abominations, too much humanisation/flanderisation going on here).

-Dige

Besides the things others have already said, I will refer you to the Deamonhunter book for dark heresy. One of it's chapters is rules for building deamonic adversaries for your game. If you decide to expand on the idea of having demonic PCs it should prove a very useful read. (also the grey knights in it are 1000 times scarier than the BC ones hehe)

Plushy said:

Of course you can have a Khornate Daemonhost.

And you need to remember that Daemons aren't all about being psychic/sorcerous. Daemons have claws and teeth, and it's not uncommon for them to use those to rend your pathetic fleshy mortal form apart for their own amusement. Or scorch you with multicoloured flames. The point I'm getting at here is that being possessed doesn't suddenly turn you in to a super-sorcerer.

Blood Pact said:

Oh yeah, I forgot about the daemon that possesses a corpse in the second Enforcer book. That was a **** good section in an otherwise iffy read.

Edit: wierd…

Only the first post appeared until I replied, I thought it was an entirely new thread on the subject.

Use the Possessed Trait on page 142 and, as the GM ignore any bits that don't make sense for your campaign idea. As GM you are stronger and more powerful than all four Chaos Gods and the Corpse-Emperor put together. Remember the Golden Rule of Roleplay ; the books are only guidelines on how to play.

If you want to run a game where the players are Daemons or Daemonhosts then it's your game to run and fit the system to how you want to run it. Your Daemons can manifest wholly in the Materium.

You could also, for a bit more fun, and a better game imo, you could run with regular generated characters with the following homebrew rules:

Therianthropic Daemon (Trait)

The warp sometimes curses those from beyond as much as those within the Materium. On rare occasions a Daemonic possession can go horrifically wrong, causing a fusion between man and warp-beast. A symbiotic relationship is born, body and mind of both creatures forging a truly horrifying abomination, allowing full control over form and power.

While in human form, the character gains the benefits of the Illusion of Normalcy Gift of the Gods. At any time out of combat, they can transform from Mortal to Daemon, shedding the Illusion of Normalcy to show their true form.

Characters with this Trait can no longer gain Corruption. The character also gains a Daemonic Name. The mortal side of the Therianthropic Daemon is just as vulnerable to the power of its True Name as the Daemon.

New Skill: Therianthropic Transformation (Toughness)

This allows the Therianthropic Daemon can change between Mortal and Daemon forms as a Full Round Action within combat. At Rank 2 (Trained), this is reduced to a Half Round Action. At Rank 3 (Experienced), this is reduced to a Free Action. At Rank 4 (Veteran), the change can be performed as a Reaction.

It'd be up to you to decide how you want to add the Daemon side into it, either by giving a separate character sheet for the Daemon, or just by adding the relevent Traits and stat mods to the character.

The game is yours to play around with, edit, take in brand new directions.

Have fun!

I do like Dige's idea of playing a non-aligned daemon as this gives far more scope for role-playing and character development. Ironically you can already play as a daemon in Rogue Trader (although the odds of this are very slim). By picking the tainted-mutant lure of the void and rolling up hellspawn on the mutations table you are already playing a daemonic character.

Using this methodology and with allowance from the GM you could essentially make the character using the starting rules but modifying with the hellspawn background (or pseudo daemon for those with just bc) to make the character a daemon at start up.

This would not represent someone who began their existence as a daemon but who through extreme exposure to the warp, dark rituals or whatever other fluff you would like to come up with has transformed into a daemon. Note this is just a daemonic entity and does not represent someone reaching the heady heights of becoming a daemon prince which still requires earning the necessary infamy meaning spawndom is still factor for those who reach their corruption threshold without getting the required infamy as their daemonic bodies twist and mutate horribly out of control without the favour of the Chaos Gods to bring them to true apotheosis.

I think there is an inherent problem with demons being a playable option when becoming a demon is an assumed ending to the campaign.

Maybe if BC gets an Ascension-like supplement one day, with the Heretics assembling a mighty Black Crusade and waging war with the Empire at large, there'll be an option to play your former character as a Demon Prince.

I think there is an inherent problem with demons being a playable option when becoming a demon is an assumed ending to the campaign.

Maybe if BC gets an Ascension-like supplement one day, with the Heretics assembling a mighty Black Crusade and waging war with the Empire at large, there'll be an option to play your former character as a Demon Prince.

Do remember though there is a huge difference between being merely a daemon or a daemon prince and just because one is a daemon doesn't mean they can't aspire to the glory of full princedom or alternatively fear spawndom as a price of failure.

I do love your idea though of having a supplement out for playing a daemon prince and bringing further ruination to the realms of the false Emperor. That would rock!

I think there is an inherent problem with demons being a playable option when becoming a demon is an assumed ending to the campaign.

Maybe if BC gets an Ascension-like supplement one day, with the Heretics assembling a mighty Black Crusade and waging war with the Empire at large, there'll be an option to play your former character as a Demon Prince.

Do remember though there is a huge difference between being merely a daemon or a daemon prince and just because one is a daemon doesn't mean they can't aspire to the glory of full princedom or alternatively fear spawndom as a price of failure.

I'm pretty sure lesser daemons don't have such issues, not to mention the mental capacity to be concerned by them.

I do love your idea though of having a supplement out for playing a daemon prince and bringing further ruination to the realms of the false Emperor. That would rock!

Well, it would have been nice if a game called Black Crusade gave us some ideas for actually running, ahem, a Black Crusade.

It's also a balance consideration, for a certain quality of balance. Daemon Princes are pretty much the only ones out there that strike me as gameable types, and they're really not something that could freely roll with starting Heretics and CSMs. On the other hand, if one player gets to be the scariest warlord of Chaos this side of the Eye of Terror, another a psyker so powerful, he's practically a walking conduit for the Warp, and another builds daemon-infused machines of war that make Titans tremble, then I'd say the Daemon Prince guy wouldn't stand out as much.

I can see some daemons being possible PC's, although it depends upon type.

Plague-bearers, having once been mortals prior to contracting Nurgle's-rot, would seem most likely. Daemonettes a close second.

Horrors are only temporary constructs for a specific purpose, regardless of power. & Bloodletters are such rage-monsters that roleplaying is non-excsistant.

Greater Daemons are the most 'self-aware' but they are such awesomely powerful creatures that space marines, plural, are hesitant around them.

Nurgle daemon's are perhap's the most independent, with Slaaneshi the second.

As to progression, a daemon can progress from 'standard' to unique. e.g: Plague-bearer to herald to named. Each stage the daemon earns a new part to their true name & greater autonomy.

A party of mixed daemons (Tzeentch; Nurgle; Slaanesh; Khorne; & undivided) would already be marked as 'special', which is an essential fluff for Tzeentch & Khorne daemons.

My two sense;

To "convert" a PC to a Daemon Prince, they'd need a minimum of the following additions:

• Daemonic (+1d5)
• Warp Instability
• From Beyond
• Fear (4) (Terrifying)
• Unnatural Strength (+4)
• Unnatural Toughness (+4)
• Soul-Bound (Chaos or Patron Deity)
• Dark Sight
• The Stuff of Nightmares
• Size (6) (Enormous)
• Daemonic Name (as per the Reward)
• [New Trait] Entropic Harmony: The Deathbringer has passed through any mortal concepts of morality. He does not have any Corruption or Insanity Rating, but both are counted as having ratings of 100 for all calculations needing Corruption or Insanity Bonus (such as weapons with the Tainted Quality or Corruption based Psychic Powers). In all other respects he does not have a Rating and is therefore immune to effects regarding both Characteristics.
• [New Trait] Daemonic Psychic Resistance: Immune to the effects of Psychic Phenomenon, but not the effects of Perils of the Warp.
• Daemonic Prescence: Any mortal standing within a 20 metre radius of the Daemon Prince is at a -10 penalty to all Willpower Tests.

If the Daemon is psychic, they also gain the following Traits:

• Psyker
• Psy Rating (1d5 + 4, or Patron Deity's Favoured Number)
• Favoured by <Patron Deity or Chaos>: The Daemon Prince has access to any of their patron deity's psychic powers, or unaligned powers for a Chaos Daemon Prince, and may use them as a Daemonic psyker.

Each Daemon Prince would also need a variety of additional features depending on their individual nature and alignment. I'd also propose the following new Ritual:

Rite of Dimensional Anchoring

It is possible that a newly forged Daemon Prince will stay manifested in the Materium for months, years, even decades after their Apotheosis. The former Heretic's will still holds him tight, but his new Daemonic form adds great stress and the pull of the warp is strong. For the fledgling that isn't ready to face eternity in the Immaterium, methods have been found to anchor their soul to the Materium; so if they should ever be banished back to the warp, they will manifest back in the Materium again. This process is not taken lightly though; and the process dates back to Old Earth when superstitious mortals put faith in tales of immortality and rebirth.

Requirements:

The Rite of Dimensional Anchor is similar in essence to a Rite of Binding or creating a Daemon Weapon, but instead it traps a part of the Daemon Prince’s soul in a phylactery, tethering him to the Materium and dragging him back if he should ever be cast to the warp. Creating the dimensional anchor is a three step process which can take weeks or months to prepare for.

The phylactery must be an ornately crafted (Best Craftsmanship) amulet or charm which is made specifically for the purposes of being a phylactery and is enscribed with the Daemon Prince's True Name. Phylacteries will often have filigree depicting the nature of the Daemon Prince's patron deity and daemonic symbols etched into the surface. Creating the Phylactery from scratch requires a huge amount of time and patience.

First, the vessel must be fabricated, requiring an extended Hellish (-60) Tech-Use Test , taking 1d10 + 4 days and requiring 12 successes in total. If the crafter possesses any of the following skills, they each add a cumulative +10 to the roll: Scholastic Lore (Numerology), Scholastic Lore (Occult), Forbidden Lore (Daemonology), Forbidden Lore (The Warp), Trade (Scrimshaw), Trade (Remembramancer) .

Then, it must be etched with ornate filigree, including at least one of the Daemon Prince's True Names. This requires a Hellish (-60) Trade (Scrimshaw) Test . The engraver also must possess the Linguistics (Chaos Marks) skill and if he possesses any of the following skills, they each add a cumulative +10 to the roll: Scholastic Lore (Numerology), Scholastic Lore (Occult), Forbidden Lore (Daemonology), Forbidden Lore (The Warp), Trade (Remembramancer) .

Only once a perfect vessel has been created (or alternatively bargained for from the Gods themselves) can the second stage begin. The Daemon Prince to be anchored will become the subject of this ritual and as such cannot lead the ritual itself. The Daemon Prince must be bound into the vessel, making it a mortal prison which he must then break free of. The binding is done via a single Hellish (-60) Forbidden Lore (Daemonology) (Int) Test , modified by Table 5-22: Summoning Ritual Modifiers (see page 229 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook). The Degrees of Success on this roll counts as the Binding Strength for the phylactery.

Finally, the Daemon Prince must break free from his mortal prison. This is done via a Challenging (+0) Willpower Test , with a –5 penalty for every point of the phylactery’s Binding Strength. If the Daemon Prince succeeds on the Test, he emerges from the phylactery with a single Wound remaining. There is a 60% chance of the weapon being destroyed as it escapes, with a -5% chance for each point of Binding Strength; if destroyed, the Rite fails.

If the Daemon Prince fails to escape the phylactery, the ritualist may assist by performing the same test as above with the same modifiers for Binding Strength. If this succeeds then the chance of the phylactery being destroyed is increased by 20%. If this fails then the Rite fails; the phylactery crumbles to dust and the Daemon Prince is cast back to the Warp. His patron deity will more than likely be waitiing for an explanation.

Effects:

The Daemon Prince is now bound to the phylactery. If he should ever be cast back to the warp, he is instead cast back into his phylactery. He may then attempt to escape the phylactery in the same manner as during the forging. Upon success, the Daemon Prince emerges from the phylactery in a manner befitting his alignment: Khornite phylacteries may start bleeding and the rivulets form a figure; Nurgle phylacteries may emit noxious smoke; Slaaneshi phylacteries may emit arcs of electricity; Tzeentchian phylacteries may emit flame. The process takes one full round to complete but leaves the Daemon Prince weakened for a time. He takes 2d10 damage to every Characteristic which is recovered in 1d5 hours.

If the phylactery is ever damaged or broken, it immediately crumbles into ash and is destroyed, causing a Psychic Backlash which ripples instantaneously through the warp to the Daemon Prince. He immediately suffers 1d5 levels of Fatigue and a single roll on the Psychic Phenomenon Table (see page 210 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook) is applied to both the broken phylactery and the Daemon Prince. The phylactery itself has a Hardness of 25 and 10 + Binding Strength Wounds. It is not affected by extremes of heat, cold or pressure and is not affected by the Warp Weapon quality.

While the Daemon Prince is trapped within the phylactery, it becomes warm to the touch, vibrating with warp energy. At this time the phylactery’s Hardness drops to 5. If the phylactery is ever destroyed while the Daemon Prince is inside, he is immediately and irrecoverably destroyed; dragged into the deepest maelstrom of the void. The Daemon Prince may not burn Infamy to survive this fate and cannot return or be summoned to the Materium for 1d10 centuries. Such is the Psychic Backlash from this; roll twice on the Perils of the Warp Table (see page 211 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook) and apply both affects; one with the focus being the phylactery and the other with the focus being the creature who destroyed it.

Duration:

Every time the Daemon Prince emerges from his phylactery, it loses one from its Binding Strength. Once the Binding Strength is at zero, the phylactery becomes inert, crumbles to dust and is destroyed. While it still has Binding Strength available, the phylactery can be recharged by performing this ritual again. Each level of existing Binding Strength adds +5 to the Forbidden Lore (Daemonology) (Int) Test, adding one Binding Strength for the initial Degree of Success, plus one for every two additional Degrees of Success. When performing the ritual in this way, the Daemon Prince does not take any more permanent Characteristic Damage.

Cost:

The ritual is taxing even to the most adventurous of ritualists and every participant in the ritual suffers 4d10 damage to every Characteristic. This damage lasts for 2d10 hours, adding one hour for each level of Binding Strength within the phylactery that was created. The Daemon Prince immediately takes a permanent loss of 1d10 to a single Characteristic to signify what essence has been left behind in the phylactery. Additionally; two rolls on the Psychic Phenomenon Table (see page 210 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook), applying the results to all in the ritual.

The Price of Failure:

The Chaos Gods do not take kindly to their creations holding onto petty ideas of mortality. As such, they punish all those involved in the ritual. A roll for Contempt of the Warp (see page 227 of the Black Crusade Core Rulebook) must be made, modified by +10 for each degree of failure. Any creature involved in the ritual, including the Daemon Prince, who has the Psyker Trait, loses the Trait for 2d10 + 4 hours. The Daemon Prince also permanently reduces his Daemonic Trait rating by one, to a minimum of 0.