If Obara Sand is in your hand after your first mulligan, before you place any setup cards you may remove her from the game and take an additional mulligan.
1. If Obara Sand is in my hand after my SECOND mulligan, would that mulligan qualify for the ability, as it is indeed also after the first mulligan?
2. What happens when I have more than one copy of Obara? How are they removed from the game? What happens if I have more than one copy of Obara in my hand?
hencook said:
No. It's a passive effect, so it will be strict about the "first mulligan" identification. It's not like a "play only if you have already taken a mulligan" limitation on a triggered effect.
hencook said:
Obara uses her own title in her card effect. That means she is self-referential and therefore applies only to the individual card, not to every card with the same title. You only remove the one copy of the character from the game per mulligan, no matter how many other copies are in your hand or deck.
Couldn't you argue that a second mulligan is still after the first one?
Nah, the whole game breaks down if you did that. For instance, take House Messenger:
"After you play House Messenger from your hand, reveal top 2 cards and add 1 to your deck."
You can't just do this whenever you want after you've played House Messenger. The passive kicks in, and you must do it right then. Obara's passive kicks in after your first mulligan, we check to see if she's in your hand, and then run the rest.
hencook said:
Nah, the whole game breaks down if you did that. For instance, take House Messenger:
"After you play House Messenger from your hand, reveal top 2 cards and add 1 to your deck."
You can't just do this whenever you want after you've played House Messenger. The passive kicks in, and you must do it right then. Obara's passive kicks in after your first mulligan, we check to see if she's in your hand, and then run the rest.
My question is what determines that if I drew a second Obara, that her ability only works on your second draw but not your third? My argument is that the conditions have still been met to trigger the passive as in: it's still after the first mulligan and you haven't placed any set-up cards. For example, I play one House Messenger and the passive is triggered. Then I play another one, but it still meets the same criteria for passive to take place, I'm not triggering the first House Messenger's passive later, I'm triggering the second one immediately.
Stryphe said:
I'm playing Baratheon. I do an intrigue challenge with Melisandre and win. I then use Bound by Blood to return Mel to my hand and put VM-Stannis into play. He's the only King. I do a military challenge with him, but the defender wins the challenge.
Can I use the Vigilant on Stannis to stand him? After all, it is still "after I win a challenge as the attacker" for that intrigue challenge. And Stannis wasn't in play at the time, so it's not like I'm trying to use the same passive twice, right?
Passive and Response abilities do not work the way that you are suggesting. "After your first mulligan, before you place any setup cards" creates a single point in the game where passive abilities (like Obara's can be used). Passives and Responses dealing with "After" or "If X happens" are only valid within the action window in which that thing happens. Granted, there isn't really a formal window structure for setup and mulligans, but the same reasoning applies. By taking the second mulligan, you close off the opportunity to use passive abilities keyed off of the first mulligan.
Now, if it was worded as a general limitation rather than a play restriction within a passive effect (eg, "If you have already taken at least 1 mulligan this game…" or "Use only if you have taken at least 1 mulligan…"), then you could use multiple copies to get multiple mulligans.
ktom said:
I'm playing Baratheon. I do an intrigue challenge with Melisandre and win. I then use Bound by Blood to return Mel to my hand and put VM-Stannis into play. He's the only King. I do a military challenge with him, but the defender wins the challenge.
Can I use the Vigilant on Stannis to stand him? After all, it is still "after I win a challenge as the attacker" for that intrigue challenge. And Stannis wasn't in play at the time, so it's not like I'm trying to use the same passive twice, right?
Passive and Response abilities do not work the way that you are suggesting. "After your first mulligan, before you place any setup cards" creates a single point in the game where passive abilities (like Obara's can be used). Passives and Responses dealing with "After" or "If X happens" are only valid within the action window in which that thing happens. Granted, there isn't really a formal window structure for setup and mulligans, but the same reasoning applies. By taking the second mulligan, you close off the opportunity to use passive abilities keyed off of the first mulligan.
I can see how it would work that way. I have honestly never used her ability and only have 1 copy of her anyways, so I would never have been in a situation that was set forth in my and the OP's examples.
The way I WAS looking at it was a system of checks according to the new game state. In my example of having drawn Obara again after my second mulligan the checks would be the following:
Is it after the first mulligan? Yes
Have you not placed set-up cards? Yes
And the way Vigilant would work is another set of checks according to the new game state:
Did you win the challenge? No
But after thinking about it long and hard after your explanation, I realize the first check for the Obara should be: is it the first mulligan? Thanks for clearing it up.
"After" in a response or passive means " immediately after" (at the first opportunity to initiate a passive). Taking a second mulligan means it's no longer after the first, but after the second.