IS a Sorceror not quite better, its seams like they are wastly better, Or am I sooo wrong and why?

The n00b

Regular Psykers can push harder and get greater effects going. But Sorc's are a much safer alternative.

A human psyker starts with one point higher psy rating, so that's 750 XP advantage right there. Additionally, when push comes to shove, he can push some more. Theoretically, a starting psyker can manifest with Psy Rating 10. Of course, it's likely that his head explodes when he does so, but it's a possibility.

A Sorcerer starts Bound, which is less head-exploding when not fettered. He also begins fully trained in all save the Exotic Category, begins play with Legion Power Armour and Equipment, Unnatural Strength and Toughness, high resistance to numerous bad things, way more wounds, and +5 in his 8 other stats.

For absolute, pure, "until I explode into a greater daemon within the first three sessions and probably wipe the party" firepower, nothing beats the regular human Psyker.

If you want a far more stable and resilient character that doesn't need to dip into his powers for everything because he's already tough and can use any weapon he **** well pleases, you want to take the Sorcerer instead.

So it is as I thougt, only once Clear chose, Soceror - As IT has some very clear advanges and not realy any disadvanges long turn - as he will live long turn - unlike psyker..

I have a person goal to "infect"a plantet with Chaos inlighment, is is just strigt aheard - Spreed the word, frow alot of taintet things out there, as se things go "bad"?

How do you taint things in the first place?

Well, you do know that Black Crusade is a Roleplaying game and playing a Chaos Space Marine is much different than playing a mere mortal? Yes, the Sorcerer is much tougher when things come to fisticuffs, but he is psychically much weaker in the end and its much harder to sneak into places if you are such a big dude in a big armor.

How to taint a planet? Well, I would start with setting up various cults in worship of your flavour of God(s), corrupting the people in charge or just outright killing them. When you have a moderately good grip on the planet via your network of cults I would then do some sort of massive ritual in order to "consecrate" the planet to Chaos and maybe summon a daemon or two to show them the real power.

I'd not say much weaker.

One less to start with, but that's a matter of XP [which in the Sorcerer is spent in all sorts of other places. Even with that "big divide" he's easily a couple of thousand XP more than a hapless human. Just the wounds and stat bonuses alone are excellent, and the starting equipment is **** good], they both get as many powers.

What you're really exchanging is max output, for safety and stability. The REAL difference is that the Sorcerer does not add +10 to phenomena when Unfettered, and only adds +10 for up to +3 PR when pushing. The Psyker can go up to +5 but gets +5% per PR, so if using push 3 he's at +15%.

Push 5 is a very bad idea often anyways: with a 50% chance of Perils of the Warp, you're really gambling with the party's lives there.

It akways seemed strange to me that in this system innate psychic ability is more dangerous than sorcery (something completely opposite from DotDG and RH). Sorcerors are even better when you take 'child of the warp' talent because then they can push +4 with still only +10 on phenomena.

Perhaps its less of an issue if the greatest risk has already befallen you. The Sorcerer's already turned his soul to Chaos. Its the same with Insanity [a lack of it is for the weak] and Corruption: The average joe goes chaos-spawn at 10, and you're just receiving your first [Eight-Pointed] Gold Star as a normal cultist there.

Plus I do believe that technically he's still a normal Psyker: Its the other stuff they can do and add to it that make it Sorcery. Blasphemous Incantation, Sacrifice, all the boosting methods and talents, basically, are the Sorcery. He can still function as a normal Psyker, but his methods of focus, what he's willing to do and go for, are where the line was crossed.

When those rituals go bad, though, the risk is once again made clear.

Kiton said:

So if we can assume that DH Imperial Psykers are connected to the Emperor the same way BC Socerors are to Chaos Gods and both DH Sorcerors and BC Psykers are more like a 'feelance' then it makes sense (also with mark of tzeentch making you bound and all).

Thank you friend for clearing that up for me.

Neither the Sorcerer nor the Psyker archetype assume you're a psyker or a sorcerer. Basically, you do psyker stuff. Whether you do that through occult knowledge, innate psychic powers or a combination of both is up to you entirely. In BC, there is no mechanical difference between Sorcery and Psyker-y, though certain talents carry a more clear flavor towards one or the other, such as blasphemous incantation being somewhat sorcery flavored, but not rigidly so.

The difference in name is only because having two different archetypes named the same thing would get confusing as heck.

CSMs are flat out more powerful than non-CSMs, so in that sense yes the Sorcerer is more powerful than the Psyker, but there are a lot of situations in which you simply *don't want to be a Chaos Space Marine*.

Assuming you want to play a character with a buttload of military training, heavy armour and excellent starting weapons, then of *course* you play a CSM. You play a Human Psyker if you want to play a Psychic character who *isn't* an eight-foot wall of steel and flesh.

While the Chaos Space Marine Sorcerer has more points worth of stuff overall, it isnt more specialized as a Psyker.

Psy Rating costs 750 xp to raise, and the Sorcerer has 1 less point than the Psyker, which means for actual psyker potential, you start 750 xp behind. Most of the good powers are at psy rating 4 or 5+ which means a Sorcerer will spend 1500 to get there, where a Psyker could spend 750 and buy favored of the warp and 400 points worth of powers. Its all in how you look at it.

For everything else about a character though, that 750xp is absolutely nothing. You start behind on the Psy Rating, but the wounds, attributes, weapon training, skills, equipment, traits and talents you start with instead far, far more than make up for it IF you were planning to, at some point, branch out into anything other than pure psychic power.

Even then, with a Sorcerer, the base you start with is quite solid, meaning you're already prepped for starting down the "let's spend a few thousand xp on psy abilities" right from the start [or very close to it]. Psykers that intend not to explode into a greater daemon within a session and a half often have to compromise and grab a few things not related to their powers, lest they be forced to rely on them for everything.

As for "giant generally armoured man", its at LEAST as easy to hide that as it is to hide having "child of the warp". Hereteks get rather difficult to hide in the face of the corpse emperor's versions anyways as well, once the gear starts getting a little "nonstandard". Hells, a Champion is almost as good out of the box as an Apostate at talking.

Kiton said:

I wasn't necessarily talking about infiltration and stealth (although the sheer *size* of a CSM does cause some major problems there) so much as the simple fact that you might not want to be that *type* of character at all.

I think you might also be focusing too much on stats and modifiers. Yes, a Champion is almost as good at talking as an Apostate (because it's the CSM "Social" Archetype) but there are some things that an Apostate can do that a Champion plain can't - like pass as a member of the Ecclesiarchy. There's also the fact that even if a Human Heretic is noticeably Heretical, that's not the same as being noticeably a member of the Hated Traitor Legions. A Heretic Psyker with Child of the Warp is obviously a *psyker* but isn't obviously a servant of Chaos (and they don't have to take CotW if they don't want to).

That's actually why I mentioned the Champion, as well as things like stealth and infiltration. Sure, you can't pass yourself off as an adept, but there's plenty of abnormally huge people in the setting, even ones that aren't marines. Long as you're not wearing the telltale armour, at the very worst you could try to pass off for a Loyalist instead. Given most imperials have never seen a Space Marine at all, let alone know all the chapters, you've actually got a decent chance of doing this at least temporarily. Penalties, perhaps, but as long as you're dressed the part, its not as if you had five tentacles sprouting from your face. You're just a bit bigger than most.

Of course, if someone wants to play not that type of character, that's entirely up to them. I was arguing from a primarily mechanical standpoint, for any that worry they'd be less capable by picking Sorcerer.

The Alpha Legion are known to have walked unnoticed amongst normal humans, and they don't do it with anything unique. They do it the old fashioned way - with Deceive +30 - which anyone can take (but it'll be **** costly).

I am reading and all very interesting.. Just - with all the sneaking around and not turn into a BIG talking with no action for 1 year game - Surely there much be some way of spreding "things" or taintet things so that peaple who use them/have them one his owm person get curroptions poins(slow/faster) - just like washing porn in real life ^^

The psyker is .. Need a big shild and no to much focus on your powers unless you dare a party kill/reduction - so Socseror it is..

@kiton

Since I've already said my piece about Astartes trying to pass themselves off as human a long time ago, I'll spare us the obligatory rant and just say that the fluff of 25 years has gone both ways, with Black Crusade stating that "A Chaos Space Marine is generally incapable of blending in with human society. Their enlarged physique and extensive modifications are distinctive amongst virtually every human population." [bC core book, p. 49]

Disguising yourself as a loyalist is of course an option, but it's quite a bit of work. After all, Space Marines are living legends. Passing it off to the unwashed masses is child's play. However, doing so will make your appearance known by word of mouth to the powers that be - planetary nobility, the Administratum, the Ecclesiarchy and, worst, the Inquisition. The first will only want some of your time to fawn over you, the last one will know enough about the Astartes to spot something fishy if you don't have your act down pat. So while most heretics can move around as "just a humble pilgrim, good sir", a legionaire will have to create a far more elaborate cover story whenever he moves within the Imperium, which is additional work and an additional risk and thus a drawback.

As for the "Daemon bites your head off"-thing, you get at least one freebie per session once you take Warp Lock which is quite probably a given for most psykers anyway.

This is why it Is very usefull to have a human. In my opinon they are prity much the same class. One is a human and one is a marine. The lesser psy powers on the marine side I think is just compensation for wounds implants equipment ect.

Ezrekiel the Mad Prophet said:

It might be worth pointing out that while real human beings have indeed sometimes been as tall as Space Marines (although this is comparatively rare - I don't think it's entirely correct to label the 7'6'' model on that diagram as "basketball player" rather than "world's tallest basketball player) the Imperium is actually probably much *less* likely to have very tall people than the real world, since it's so grossly intolerant of genetic diversity.

While it is perfectly possible for real human beings to be upwards of seven feet tall, a human being taller than seven feet in the Imperium would almost certainly be persecuted as a mutant even if they *weren't* suspected of being a Chaos Marine.

But a 2,3M high dude (340kg) might be able to get arround with a VERY good reason - but your right, it is quite HUGE and will easy take the "local known dude" and thereby attach some fast attension from others(like the Eccelsia or alike).

On the other hand Humans have slowly been getting taller. Granted, a lot of that has to do with changes in nutrition [less of the 'mal'- kind across families as well], but toss in ten millenia of even more changes?

Throw in artwork like the Rogue Traders, and its entirely possible people average a few inches more than right now to begin with. A 7'6" character could be the equivalent of a 6'8" wrestler now.