The description for Combat Master says that "opponents fighting you in hand-to-hand gain no bonuses for outnumbering you".

So what happens if an opponent has the Double Team talent? Does Combat Master cancel the benefit of Double Team or is it that only the normal bonus is cancelled out?

What do you get with Double Team? A Bonus?

What does Combat Master deney? A Bonus?

Well, no Bonus is no Bonus. No matter if it was +10/20/30

I get your point and that was my initial interprentation of the rule. It does not seem to be fair, though, as it allows a DM who knows that the players have invested in Double Team to cancel all their benefit simply by presenting opponents with Combat Master.

Its just as unfair as a GM throwing creatures with Warp Weapons against a party that just acquired power armour.

As long as not every enemy has it, its not really an issue. Double Team really strikes me more as a "pair up to make quick work of a group of enemies" than anything.

Exeviolthor said:

Of course, if it is appropriate some NPCs should have Combat Masters… but it should be characters who are Combat Masters, real skilled combatants who can take on several foes at once without trouble. And they should be rare. Your average mook doesn't deserve this skill. Even most skill fighters don't deserve this skill. If used appropriately, it will be fine.

Agreed, there are always ways a GM can get one over on his/her players. I see Combat Master as a good way of seperating PCs that are skilled from those that aren't so good at melee. That way if there are some bad guys using double team some of your PCs are in less danger from getting outnumbered…

If two players have the Double Team talent then they get an additional +20 bonus to their weapon skill on top of the regular bonus for outnumbering an enemy. A DM may rightly decide to throw enemies with Combat Master at them as otherwise using Double Team all the time by fighting as a group can be overpowered. In this case the DM is not a ****. He simply wants to set up a challenging fight.

Cancelling all the benefit of Double Team, though, seems to be too harsh and in my opinion doesn't make any sense. Two characters that have learned to fight close together should not be treated the same as those that have not.

It seems to me that it is one of those cases where the description of a talent does not take into consideration all cases. I cannot think of any other case where a talent cancels the effect of another talent in such a definite manner.

Anyway I wanted to know the official rules on the subject so thanks for your answers.

And never forget: This works both ways.

If your PCs have Combat Master they get the same benefits. So its no problem for me.

And Combat Master is… well… a Combat Master. He has enough expirience to know how to act when he fights against more opponents. Simple as that.

I would just wonder if every scum has combat master… but trained elite Bodyguards and stuff… why not?

I'm I reading these talents wrong?

Combat Master just cancels out the outnumbering bonus, nothing more and nothing less.

Double Team gives you +10 WS when you and an ally gang up on a opponent and +20% when both allies have Double Team and gang up on an opponent.

Double Team is not an outnumbering bonus so Combat Master doesn't cancel out the bonuses for Double Team, at most it will take away the outnumbering bonus of 10% if it's 2 to 1 and it will cancel the outnumbering bonus of +20% if it's 3 to 1.

These two talents have only the out numbering bonus in common, one say this bonus is in addition to as the other one cancels the outnumbering bonus. No where does it say that the bonuses from Double Team get canceled by Combat Master.

Think about it if a group of 3 allies fight a group of 3 enemies and say the allies all have double team and the enemies all have combat mater. So two of the allies chose to focus there attacks on the enemy in the middle, which is ganging up on someone, and get a +20% to their WS and kill him. Well the enemies are outnumbered 1.5 to 1, so not quite 2 to 1 though. The enemies don't do any killing of the allies, they're mooks and they suck, and two of the allies gang up on the enemy on the right end and kill him while still getting +20% WS bonus. Now it is out numbering 3 to 1 in favor of the allies, so normally the allies would get +20% WS from Double Team and +20% WS bonus from outnumbering 3 to 1, but because the last enemy has Combat Master talent and the allies don't get that outnumbering bonus of +20% WS but they still get their +20% WS for Double Team Talent. So the Third round the allies attack the last enemy with a +20% WS but fail to kill him because it turns out in this scenario the last enemy was a Greater Demon of Nurgle and was just playing with the acolytes and kills them all. You didn't see that one coming did you?

So inclusion Combat Mater talent cancels out outnumbering bonuses not the Double Team talent bonuses.

P.S.: As an acolyte don't kill the psyker, when ever possible, when hunting demons or let the psyker fall asleep on the job, because best bet he'll find you your Greater Demon of Nurgle for you.

Phi6891 said:

In my opinion you are simply missing the point, Combat Master gives "Opponents fighting you in hand-to-hand gain no bonuses for outnumbering you.'

But remember, Double Team shows up fairly early on most classes trees, if they show up at all. Combat Master tends to show up much later. So Double Team, which usually is fairly cheap to buy, will help a group survive at lower ranks for a much longer period.

It's also interesting to me that these rules as written are fairly realistic. 2 or 3 on one tends to be deadly, unless the defender is superbly trained, in which case the numbers don't matter… the teams need to be taught how to fight together to be effective or a single guy who is well trained can hold off several attackers at once, for a long time.

Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. Any other trained Commando will tell you the same thing.

I share this point of View with Denmar.

You recieve the double team Bonus when ganging up on an opponent. So its required that there is atleast a 1vs2 Situation even when the Fight is 2vs2 both of you gang up one of them which makes you outnumbering him, though the teams are even. The rule of ganging up (CRB P. 189) clarifies this, to gang up you just have to focus on the same enemy, if the teams are even this has no influence. So outnumbering and double team refer to the same Rule, respective ganging up, though double team enhances this rule and offers therefore an additional bonus. On the other side combat master negates any bonus you recieve from outnumbering which is in fact based upon the rule of ganging up. The conclusion is that both, outnumbering and double team, get negated because both use the same rule to qualifiy for their bonus. But the rule they are based on gets negated before they can generate any bonus.

And thats what you expect from a combat master. There might be some dudes that know how to work together but a real master will not get tricked by this.

FieserMoep said:

The way I'm viewing it, I know it's different from the way you guys are viewing it, is that I don't see Double Team giving you an outnumbering bonus, I see it giving you a Talent bonus in combat for having the talents. And as I recall that the talent doesn't menchin that it is an outnumbering bonus it just works with the outnumbering bonus. I see Combat Master as just negating the bonuses from being ganged up on but not negating the fact of being ganged up on, do you see what I mean? Just because you know how to handle yourself when your being ganged up on doesn't mean you're not still getting ganged up on by 2 or more people.

Combat Master negates the opponent's bonuses gained from outnumbering the character with Combat Master (I don't think it specifies the "ganging up" bonus). As far as I can remember Double Team only works when you outnumber an opponent. Therefore it is a bonus gained from outnumbering, and therefore would be negated by Double Team.

As I, and others, said, this is not at all unfair as long as Combat Master is used in appropriate situations and not abused by the GM.

borithan said:

So if I have Combat Master talent and I'm being ganged up on by 2 opponents do I negate the fact that it's still 2 on 1 senerio and do I negate the bonus they get for outnumbering or do I only negate the bonuses for outnumbering? Regardless it's still you and an ally ganging up on an enemy with or with out a combat bonus for outnumbering, because you still outnumber the opponent. Just because the Combat Master talent takes away the bonus of outnumbering, which granted is actually changing the skill test from Ordinary/Routine back down to a Challenging WS test instead, doesn't stop the fact that the Double Team talent is effective when you are in the act of ganging up on someone whether or not you have the bonus from outnumbering.

Wow…. I'm on the fence on this one. I see Phi6891's reasoning, and I see the Denmar's. The Double Team talent does cost 100 points at about rank 2, while the Combat Master is 200 at about rank 5…….. The Double Team bonus applies when you fight shoulder to shoulder with someone, and is in addition to the outnumbering bonus. The Combat Master says it negates the outnumbering bonus…….but leaves it vague on the Double Team issue……. Ahh the dilemma, the conundrum, the enigma!! I leaning towards Phi6891's outlook now that I ponder it though (not that my opinion really counts in the grand scheme of things, but, I happen to like my own opinions . I'm also going to email the FFG Developers on the handy dandy "Dark Heresy Rules Questions" link below, and will get back to you on what they say. Happy debate people.

Combat Master: "Opponents fighting you in hand-to-hand gain no bonuses for outnumbering you." (Empasis Mine).

Double Team: "When ganging up on an opponent with an ally, you gain an additional +10 bonus to Weapon Skill Tests….This bonus is in addition to the normal bonuses gained from outnumbering an opponent." (Emphasis mine)

Now, I was wrong about Double Team not mentioning ganging up directly, but re-reading it confirms further in my mind that Combat Master does negate it (and I have just noticed Combat Master gets even nastier, as I hadn't remembered that the ganging up bonus applied to Weapon Skill tests, and so applied to parries as well as attacks). The phrasing of the last sentence implies the Double Team bonus is another bonus granted from outnumbering the opponent. Combined with the fact that you need to outnumber an enemy to use the bonus, and the fact that Combat Master is a rank 6-8 talent and so meant to be the shizzle in combat, this just makes it obvious to me that Combat Master negates it. Finally, if we want to be rules lawyerish, Combat Master is phrased in absolute terms. The opponents gain no bonus for outnumbering. Not that they "lose their outnumbering bonus", or "ganging up bonus", but that they get no bonus at all for outnumbering. The absolute terms of Combat Master override the less absolute terms of Double Team.

Also, bonuses are not classified like they are in DnD (where they have insight bonuses, dodge bonuses, feat bonuses etc). They don't take on special qualities because of the fact they are granted by a talent. It is just another bonus that is applied when the talent says it applies.

Remember there was a reason that the initial creator of the talent wanted to call it "Hardcore." People with Combat Master are meant to be exactly that, a Combat Master, not just a little bit better than everyone else. They are meant to wade into 5 guys, take them on by themselves and win.

borithan said:

Oh I'm sorry, when I think of a Combat Master I don't think of them only needing a WS 30 to hold off a half a dozen enemies at once, but hey that's just they way I think.

How many users of Combat Master are actually going to have WS 30? I know it is the minimum requirement, but anyone who is interested in using it is going to have higher WS.

So here is the direct question I asked and the reply that I received.

I asked:

Rule Question:
Does the Combat Master talent cancel out the Double Team talent (meaning, you get no bonuses to WS if you have Double Team and are fighting an enemy combatant with an ally, and the enemy has the Combat Master talent)? PG 14 DH Core book for the talents, and PG 198 DH for ganging up on someone, though now that I think on it you probably don't need the page references.

The reply:

Combat Master makes your opponents not gain the regular bonuses for double-teaming, but it would not cancel out the effects of Double-Team.
Page references are always useful, so thanks!
Hope this helps and thanks for playing!

Tim Huckelbery
RPG Producer
Fantasy Flight Games

Infer from this at your own free will. Happy gaming people.

Thank you Nameless2all for finding out the answer to this question. This clears things up for how to handle Combat Master talent and Double Teaming talent togather.

Disagree with that interpretation myself.

Hey that's fine, it's your game and you can do whatever you want. It was a discussion over how rules work that's all.