A player's combat skills (Ranged: Heavy, Ranged: Light, Melee, and Brawl) are likely to be one of the most used and rolled skills on his sheet. However, only the Bounty Hunter and Hired Gun get these skills as Career Skills. All other career skills have to pay a premium to buy-out-of-career skills.

I believe no player enjoys being useless in the combat portions of the game that will come up reasonably often. Princess Leia and Padme both encountered combat as nobility and ambassadors. Combat is part of the lives of the heroes of Star Wars.

With this said, I think all careers should gain access to "Ranged: Light" (or some other combat skill) as a career skill. The true combat careers, Hired Gun and Bounty Hunter, can differentiate themselves via their specialization trees that are sure to include combat talents where the others won't. I believe without this change Explorers, Colonists, Smugglers (aside from Scoundrels,) and Technicians will feel obligated to buy a combat skill at the premium cost and thus be at an experience disadvantage compared to Hired Guns and Bounty Hunters.

Granted, I haven't had an opportunity to play this with my players, yet, but they all made mention of those Careers being unable to defend themselves.

An interesting suggestion one of my players had was a Talent available to the non-combat careers that allowed them to use one of their other skills in place of a combat skill, but for a very small subset of weapons (Such as Skullduggery for small hold-out blasters, Survival for Slug Throwers, or Deceit for Knives.)

Just spittballing there.

I whole heartedly agree with you. The Star wars galaxy is a dangerous place and with the exception of Jar jar binks and the droids every major star wars character uses either a blaster or a lightsaber. Not to say this system prevents other classes from using weapons but it forces them to specialize in another career right away putting them at a disadvantage.

Cost break down

1st level in Ranged (Light) none career skill 10 points

2nd Level in Ranged (light) none career skill 15 points

Total points = 25

Buying bounty hunter career specilization 10 points

1st level in Ranged (light) Career Skill 5 points

2nd Level in Ranged (light) Career Skill 10 points

Total points = 25

The current system just takes away to much from anyone whos careers isn't based on using a blaster to solve problems. Doesn't mean they don't know how to use a blaster at well. Also based off the above example it pretty much means you have to spend one of your 3 talent trees on one of the few careers with Ranged (light). What if that makes no sense for your character?

The thing is that not having combat skills, if it is like WFRP 3rd, doesn't rule you out of taking a useful part in combat. You don't get the greatest results, but you can still support other characters, weakening enemies for the big guys to take out, or delivering the final blow on weakened enemies.

As far as everyone using blasters: We do follow characters in the middle of a war… may not be the most representative sample.

I agree with Borithan in that I would hold off an altering any of the game's rules until you have played it. Maybe with everyone having access to a combat talent tree the game would become too easy on the combat end. It seems like you are overly nervous of not having a combat skill. Regardless, I say hold off on any changes. This is a Beta test after all, and we should be stress testing the rules, and only after we have found things that we know FROM PLAY don't work, we should change them or work around them.

I would also say, that the choice to not have everyone able to be great shots is also a thematic one. The idea of this game is that, you're not the soldiers or front liners in a war. You're everyday-joe sapient, just trying to survive on the frontier. Drifting along the raggedy edge. Guns may not even be cheap out there. The life of these characters may be a choice, do I buy a gun or do I buy food?

Also, think about how a character can grow. This can be a great way to bring a party together, as well as make your character more than just a series of stats. Perhaps characters playing colonists and politicos don't have the ability to fight for themselves so they hire another player playing the bounty hunter. This gives a reason for the party to be together, as well as drama and the chance that, as a player, you can have a character grow organically. Rather than just taking the combat necessary skills.

As to those who say "What about hunting? Surely a colonist may have to do that?" Well, yes, they may have a gun for that. But it's a lot easier to shoot a defenseless rabbit or deer, that is unawares of you than a battle hardened crack shot stormtrooper.

That Blasted Samophlange said:

This. It ties into the conversation happening in the other thread, about defense:

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=318&efcid=3&efidt=699879

Mechanically, PCs are quite susceptible to harm -AND- combat skills are not a given for every class. To me, that drives a "wild west" feel. Think about a general store owner who moves out to the frontier. If he was a merchant in the Core, he'd spend all his time doing business. But he has to learn more than book keeping to pursue his chosen profession in the Outer Rim.

Sorthlador said:

Does buying the bounty hunter career specialization open the way to other cheaper skill purchases? If so, I think I'm missing the contrast you are making. Or is it just a matter of it costing the same whether one does it the "stupid" way or the "smart" way?

redstripe said:

Am I the only person who wonders why they needed to separate out Brawl from Melee? In some settings this makes sense, but in such a gun-heavy setting why not just have a single Close Combat skill?

Doc, the Weasel said:

They may be using Melee skills for lightsabers, vibroswords, vibroblades, etc. and brawl for wrestling, Teräs Käsi, etc.

jamesewelch said:

Oh, I get what they are used for, but it is just unnecessary to split them for Star Wars.

I think it's a good distinction. There is a world of difference between a lightsaber duel and impromptu wrestling over a dropped blaster.

If the combat skills in Star Wars are basic skills as they are in WFRP 3, then there is no need to give everyone combat skills for fear that they will be limp wristed ninnies in combat. It isn't d20 where not being proficient with at least the weapon group for blaster pistols would unman you.

If you have the combat skill listed as a cheap-in career advance you will be better at dishing out death and punishment. That fits.

If you don't have the combat skill listed as a cheap-in-career advance you will default to the underlying characteristic (Brawn, Agility, whatever)…which is still going to give you a couple characteristic dice plus any advantage/disadvantage/force dice you add to the pool. You'll be able to put a blaster bolt into a bad-guy when the chips are down. A scholar in WFRP can still stab a goblin if all their friends are chewed up and bleeding out in a ditch…but that's a fair sign that things have not gone according to plan :-)

Give the system a shot. A lot of it seems funky at first read, until you see it in process.

I think it's a good distinction. There is a world of difference between a lightsaber duel and impromptu wrestling over a dropped blaster.

Agreed. Even in our world Fencing is quite a different skill from boxing… QUITE different.

As for the weapon skills being on all classes, I can kind of see both sides. To me the Outer Rim is kind of the Old West. And most people knew how to use a rifle (which I feel is more normal skill for an explorer). But you would think a lot of people would know something about a gun.

Flipside is a lot of my players like to make slightly flawed characters for Role Playing purposes anyway. I could easily see one of my players make a Politico who has no weapon skills at all.

EDIT: LoL not sure what the deal is with the quote. Doesn't matter I guess, you all see what I mean.

If you went by your logic if I made a pilot who had an agility of 4 I would not be as good as a hired gun who had 2 agility and a proficiency of 2 in range skills. Being able to roll 4 ability dice even though they are not upgraded will succeed more often than if you get to use to upgraded proficiency dice. Especially when you get into the higher difficulties, because you just don't have enough dice to overcome failures. Now granted if you planned on being ranged as a hired gun you would have more agility but I am just using this as an example that you will not be useless in combat because you don't have range skills. Spending points in range will get you a better dice to roll but without the base ability you will still be limited on how successful you will be.

Cavernous said:

That's true. The Agility 4 guy is a natural. But the trained soldier has the chance for a Triumph symbol, whereas the untrained do not. And you're right, over time, the soldier will probably up his Agi to 3.

Also, I like how only a few careers/specializations have the ability to train in weapons. Most people will do fine (just like today, picking up a Glock), by picking up a blaster, pointing, and shooting. Unlike a bow and arrow in DND (where being untrained pretty much means you're clueless - does anyone remember summer camp?), with a gun, there's no effort involved in pulling the trigger, just aiming. The training comes into play by knowing where to aim.

Please also check into your particular specialization as specialization also grant you skills.

For example, Scoundrel under Smuggler grant Range: Light

Also, easiest for a character to do is to take additional specialties to get their combat skill. 10 Exp, and you get more class skills which at reduced costs.

Some good points in this thread.

I tend to agree that most soecilizations should have access to Ranged: Light. It may not make perfect sense but I like it better than the alternatives of pushing people to get a spec just for a skill access that is so basic. I fell the primary reason for picking up additional specs should be access to talent trees.

Also, I acknowledge that martial arts is very diffrent from vibro-axe mauling, but a sling is also very diffrent from a 9mm pistol and both use Ranged: Light. I think the narrative nature of the game should lend itself to fewer skills not more. Therefore, Brawl and Meele make sense as a single skill.

If everyone has Ranged: Light..then what's the point of it being its own thing? It should be there to make the good shooters good shooters. You can still shoot without the skill, so there's no reason to waste a Spec (especially since you can still buy it separately: You can be a Doctor/Pilot/Trader and still have purchased Ranged: Light if you want it. But you in no way need it.

As for it putting characters are a XP disadvantage..isn't that supposed to be the cost of being good at extra things? I really don't see the problem.

A few points to consider Inksplat:

Not every character will start with all the skills they have access to. I just rolled out a scout with no ranks in astrogate.

Every character will need something useful to do when combat breaks out. I haven't test created a character without at least one rank in a combat skill yet.

It may be possible that a few specs can do without a combat skill (IE doctors running around healing or administering combat drugs), but the idea that a Smuggler: Thief deals with the criminal underworld on a regular basis and is ignorant of basic weapons use is just silly.

cetiken said:

I totally disagree. There are lots of criminals in fiction who don't use guns--being a thief doesn't mean you're okay killing someone.

Its sort of like suggesting that a Smuggler should be a great con man, because, hey, a Smuggler that deals with the criminal underworld and is ignorant of basic con techniques is just silly.

Except ANH gives a great example of Han being useless when it comes to lying or deceiving people--when in the detention center, after shooting everything out, he takes on this totally ridiculous tone of voice and gets completely flustered trying to talk over the radio and keep the Imps from getting suspicious.

But even in your example, that Thief could still pick up a blaster and shoot someone. That i s basic weapons knowledge, and every character has it. Ranged: Light denotes a particular skill, which is why Bounty Hunters and Mercs have it--it implies training, and actual practice skill.

Everybody else? They just know how to point and pull the trigger. But that can still kill people.

You don't think that characters in a RPG where combat takes the majority of game time should be able to participate? I fear we are going to not reach consensus. I think that ranged combat specialists will be distinct not by rolling a proficiency die or two but by their talents which let them negate penalties or perform special maneuvers.

cetiken said:

…how can normal characters not participate? They're only missing the proficiency die. And don't forget about support actions. Or using your other skills to assist in a fight. Or using the Destiny Pool.

If as a GM you run a 95% combat game, then that's on you. But in a game where you can have a straight up Doctor or Trader in the party, you need to realize that no, the game is not supposed to be all about the combat. But even if they are in the party, they can still fire a blaster--just not as effectively. But that's just like a Bounty Hunter is not likely to be useful in a negotiation or in selling spice.

So I really don't understand the problem.

They can fire blasters. They can hit with blasters. How is that not participating?

Inksplat said:

I agree. You do not understand.

cetiken said:

Yeah.. that's not helpful.

Why don't you try to explain if you feel you have such a strong point? If it is a strong point, it should be pretty easy to defend.

How is rolling 3 dice instead of 4 (or whatever) not participating? Because it seems to me, that taking part by rolling in combat = participating in combat. Doesn't it?

cetiken said:

cetiken said:

What's interesting here is the assumption that this RPG is one where combat takes the majority of game time. :-). Since WEG, this is the first SW RPG I've read & played where that is NOT the case.

I'm just observing based on my experiences at the demo table at gencon. I could be wrong. Perhaps the PCs will surrender or the Hutts will just hug it out.

Combat looks likely to me though, and even a quick fight took half an hour so that's a big chunk of a four hour block where I don't want my PCs bored or feeling inept.