This situation came up yesterday, and at the time I was convinced the card worked one way. I assumed his wording only prohibited him from contributing to the str total in a challenge ("counting" strength). I had another look at it again today, and am suddenly less certain…

If House Clegane Outlaw (with no power on him) is knelt for Game of Cyvasse during a challenge, what value is used for the comparison of "highest strength"? Is it "2" or "Null"?

I imagine the same scenario can occur for the use of a Scouting Vessel on a standing defending character.

So, the question can become, if there is a duration of time where STR is not counted, does that STR count for the purposes of using triggered effects that need or use characters with that STR?

"Count it's STR during challenges" only refers to the resolution of the challenge, not to the resolution of any other effect.

If you need to know his STR for anything other than challenge resolution, you just look count his STR. So he'll be 2 for Cyvasse, no matter how much power is on him or the timing of the event in the Challenge phase.

Thanks Ktom! My first instinct was correct then, and I'm glad to hear it! The more I thought about it, the more I was convinced I had interpreted it that way out of wishful thinking (my deck really hates Game of Cyvasse).

My original reasoning was that "Does not count it's strength" was a reference only to challenge resolution (the specific element of "Counting strength"), while had it said " x's strength does not count during challenges" or something specific about "strength is reduced to 0 during challenges" it would, in fact, return a null or 0 value, respectively. Is that distinction accurate?

Well, a counter argument could be made that if the event is played during a player action opportunity within a challenge, that their STR cannot be counted. Thier text says "does not count its STR during challenges." The condition of "during challenges" is met, so why would his STR count for anything during a Player Action within the challenge?

I may be way off, but it seems similar to the Bitter Crone: "During Military challenges, characters cannot be saved." She doesn't just apply to MIL claim. This effect applies to anything that would kill a character during a MIL challenge. This applies to any Player Actions and/or Responses, such as Lethal Counter Attack or the dragon Drogon.

It seems in the Crone example, we are allowing the text to be applied throughout the entire challenge because there are other possibilities of kill effects within a challenge other than claim. Though it seems we are not allowing the text of the Outlaw to be applied throughout each challenge simply because there aren't that many instances where STR is counted during a challenge other than to determine resolution. However, GoC clearly can count a character's STR during challenges, similar to Die By the Sword can kill a character during challenges.

Again, I may be way off, but that's the similarity I see.

Slothgodfather said:

In game terms, you only "count STR" during challenge resolution. Just like you count gold, count for dominance, and count for initiative.

I think we were looking at the term "count" incorrectly when the OP brought up the question. As we all know, a character is not at 0 STR just because their STR does not count during a challenge. Their STR amount matters for burn effects and other triggered effects that can happen throughout.

Do you not also count STR during Game of Cyvasse?

I understand that he is still a 2 STR character for burn effects, and that his STR is not lowered to zero because of his text. Instead it is simply ignored similar to the Scouting Vessals.

I suppose it is just the use of the "count STR" being a game mechanic that is only applied at challenges and dominance. So when GoC is played, he is still a 2 STR character (who's STR doesn't count during challenges)…

Slothgodfather said:

Actually, no. You don't.

"…Then, the player who knelt the character with the highest STR may choose and return a character to its owner's hand."

So, you see, you simply compare the STR of the characters. You do not "count" it toward anything. You might end up "counting" the modifiers to determine the individual STR of the character, but that's not "counting" the character's STR. If it was, you would need to "count" the character's STR, then "count" the individual STR that makes up the total challenge STR. Do you "count" STR twice during challenge resolution?

Determining a character's effective STR by doing a STR check is not considered "counting" STR. In this game, you always count individual card STR toward something. Cyvasse is not counting individual STR toward anything - it is simply comparing the individual STRs of the cards that were knelt. Not the same thing.

Gotcha. that does make sense now.