Srqt said:

Essentially this.

@MarthWMaster

Anybody else think it's weird that a core rulebook, especially the first one to be released, should not only be intrinsically tied to a specific era of the Star Wars mythos, but to a specific part of the Galaxy?

I also don't really get why Age of Rebellion didn't come out first. I always thought the Rebels were like, the main heroes of the Original Trilogy, with the fringers and bounty hunters being more of a sideshow.

If I had to guess, I'd say "Because they want to get it right". They're getting out a new line that has no ties to 40k. The 40k RPGs IMO took four tries to get it right, with Deathwatch being a low point in the series because the system that was built for lowly humans was stretched to the breaking point when it had to deal with Space Marines.

So, I'd assume Edge of the Empire will have a few teething troubles that will get worked out by the time the Age of Rebellion comes around.

@Snowman0147

Star Wars Beta (30) + Shipping (10 x 2) + Star Wars Core (Maybe 50) = 100 dollars

Star Wars Core (50) + Shipping (10) = 60 dollars

You're ignoring version 3: Star Wars Beta + Shipping = 40 dollars. End of story. You get a playable game and the errata to go with it. If the game lacks fluff as the OW beta did, just make up a few planets of your own or import some from the other SW games. Alternatively, buy one beta for your group and a core book so you have two books available - the beta doesn't magically disintegrate when the game is finished and it will likely be updateable with a few post-its.
It's certainly not as great a deal as OW was, but it's not horrible either.

And the idea of handing out a hardcopy book for free… yeah, not going to happen. Not as long as RPG industry stays as small as it is and printing costs are a very significant part of a book's cost.

Cifer said:

Okay that makes since if a errata comes with it, but would that be in pdf and thus off limits? If not, then okay it does sound much more easier to swallow. I, however, will like to say no I don't expect a hard cover to be free. I personally said posts ago that if it was not for the license I would believe that Fantasy Flight will do it via pdf. Sadly they cannot do that so they have to do hard copy. Though having a errata would fix every thing.

Snowman0147 said:

Is Only War really going to retail for 30 USD when every other 40k core book retails for 60 USD?

Snowman0147 said:

I strongly disagree that getting to play a game early and maybe sending some comments back (or maybe not, whatever) is really fair payment for the amount of work and effort that went into the beta version of EotE. Maybe you are a much more insightful and experienced gamer than me, or maybe you are a professional game designer, but I don't think my amateur comments -- even after decades of gaming -- are worth the same thing as a major ruleset written by a team of professionals.

This is only for pdf with pdf. If you wanted a hard copy for Only War you are kinda screwed. Though you still get the full game in pdf form.

Though the real reason I am putting it as a plus is that months ago my basement got flooded because it rained so hard that the sewer pumps had to back up. I lost books due to that flood, but all my pdfs are still safe. So maybe I am being a bit biased towards this.

Manchu said:

Well you have to think about that. It isn't just you doing all the calls. It is the thousands of other people doing the testing along with you that is making the corrections. This is more intel that a small group of testers and editors can never really provide. I mean what is better? A small handful of editors, or hundreds of editors willing to help you out?

I am not a game designer, but I do tinker with systems. I like to get underneath the hood and see how it works and what can I do with it. Though it does help that I talk to actual game designers, and if not I often watch other people ask questions from game designers. I am not going to say I am a expert. Hell I am hardly any thing at all. Though I can say what makes me happy and from talking to other people what makes them happy.

My wallet is taking a beating this month. First off it was a binge at a local used DVD store where I bought Fawlty Towers, Samurai Jack S1, John Carter of Mars, and They Live. Then went to a RHCP concert and bought shirts and a hat. Then, while watching FFG's Gen Con update during a lunch break at work today, I see that a Star Wars RPG is released. Later I come here to see what is up , low and behold there is a beta as the game is not ready for release yet! As a college student, this beta release sounds perfect. I saw a lot of comparison with this deal and Only War's beta deal. I can say this about them. I am buying Only War's hardcover because I am a loyal guardsmen and a huge fan of the 40K universe and feel I personally won't get the full effect of the game on a PDF. Therefore I'm sitting out the beta. However, for this RPG, I get a printed copy at what may be a cheaper price than the hardbound copy released next year. And if there are changes with the rules (which there will be), some friendly folks on these here forums will probably let me know what's up unless errata is released digitally. Then in the following years I can purchase the follow on rulebooks and maybe even the finalized version at a cheaper price down the road. I like FFG and their products so I don't see a real problem with this personally.

Also the dice mechanic sounds pretty simple and being someone who has trouble crunching numbers and trying to remember everything, this may be right up my alley. Now I just have to wait for my next paycheck

@Snowman0147

Okay that makes since if a errata comes with it, but would that be in pdf and thus off limits? If not, then okay it does sound much more easier to swallow. I, however, will like to say no I don't expect a hard cover to be free. I personally said posts ago that if it was not for the license I would believe that Fantasy Flight will do it via pdf. Sadly they cannot do that so they have to do hard copy. Though having a errata would fix every thing.

Speaking as a layman to law in general and american licensing law in particular, I can't imagine the license is that narrow that they aren't allowed to publish free errata. I would think the license mainly governs what they can and can't sell , not how they update their products. And doing a betatest with no fixes handed out to be tested would be rather senseless - I presume they'd have kept the testing inhouse if that was the case.

As for the "for free" question: Yes, FFG gets some input. However, I'd say it's less on a per-person basis than what they get from dedicated playtesters - quantity replaces quality as there are probably some who just buy the book and don't say a word in feedback. You can't weigh the benefit of the testing community as a whole versus the cost of single books. Compare them as individuals instead: Are the costs of printing a book and possibly not selling one of the finished copies (as noted, you can just continue using it) worth it compared to the benefit of maybe receiving feedback that is uttered in a constructive and well-catalogued way?

On an unrelated note: Gaaaah! Why no PDF?! I'm sitting around in continental Europe where shipping costs really drive the price up and I wantitwantit wantit !

Glorious Chief said:

Care to explain that? From where I stand you get the full effect from the game from any media. From dead trees to digital media. What makes a book so special compared to a PDF for you?

Cifer said:

As has been said in a lot of places. The reason for no PDF is that Lucas Arts considers PDF copies of game rulebooks to be no different from Computer Games, and thus covered by the Computer Game license, a completely separate license that costs a ton more than book ones. It's the same reason WOTC couldn't do Saga edition PDFs either. Stupid yes, but a sad truth none the less.

So if you want any hope, start a campaign to get LA to allow FFG PDF rights in the RPG license. But it's not FFG's fault anyways.

@Dulahan

I know that. It was more of a rhetorical "Why, god, WHY ?"-arms-outstretched-to-heaven-in-pouring-rain kind of whine rather than a question I wanted an actual answer to.

(Quotations don't seem to be working well for me…so I improvised. Is there a way to preview before I post?)

"Yes, it is likely that the core rules will be duplicated in each of the books, but in all probability, they will include new classes and background information that fit within the focus of that book. Would you prefer one book that tries to be all things to all people, or seperate books that allow people to play the types of games they want to play?"

Yes, that's exactly what I would prefer. WEG did it quite handily. It isn't that hard. Give people the basics in the core book, then expand into finer details in expansion books.

"It seems that even though you will be able to create pilots, mercenary soldiers and force users (which you've identified as 'core' classes), you seem to have already decided that you don't want to play this game because you feel that you've been stiffed by other games that have used similar models in the past?"

That's encouraging, but it doesn't get around the issue I have with buying the same set of rules three times. It's just totally unnecessary, and strikes me as a way to charge more for material that should be either in a single core book, or in a cheaper expansion book. Also, just to be clear, one of my other big issues is the use of what appears to be a "class" system. It's disappointing that characters in a setting as vast and versatile as Star Wars gets pigeon-holed into a handful of pre-selected professions. I certainly hope the careers and specialties are just loose frameworks (though, if that were the case, why have them in the first place?), or at the very least, there is an option for a more freeform character, eschewing careers.

"You mention Pinnacle and White Wolf as examples of 'how things should be', but Pinnacle don't seem to be that active in producing their own products (most of the books released for savage worlds are by third parties, with only a few books by Pinnacle themselves), and white wolf seem to be going for a more PDF only approach (although they are doing a 20th anniversary edition of Vampire: The Masquerade) so I don't think that either of those are good examples of business models that FFG should follow."

I'm not sure what you consider "that active," but Pinnacle puts out new books fairly regularly, in both print and PDF form. Not to mention that they get licensing fees from those third-party companies, and those products only help to ensure more Savage Worlds core books are purchased. Not a bad business model, if you ask me.

As for White Wolf, so they're going more toward PDF only (something I was unaware of)…and this is a problem? Are they producing material? Are they making money? Can customers buy a single core rulebook, then expand upon it as they desire with expansion material? Sure, FFG can't make Star Wars PDFs, and that's unfortunate. But that doesn't excuse the unnecessary inflation of their products.

"The way I look at is that I get to play the game earlier than I otherwise would. We know that the full version of the game is being released sometime in 2013, but we don't know when; it's entirely possible that the game won't be released until Gencon next year, but we can play it now - potentially a full year before the game is released. "

I'm happy for you. I mean that sincerely. I'm glad this works out for you. As I said, I can let go of the $30 beta. I just won't buy it.

As for the rest, just try to understand why it doesn't work for me, why it offends my sensibilities as a customer and gamer, and why I might want to let FFG know these things.

KommissarK said:

I wasn't justifying piracy. I have merely reacted at Ski's words that people pirating PDF files.

As for not selling the PDFs because "people pirate it", it is as if I said: "I don't bath myself, because I may slip in the bathtub and hurt myself" (if you get the sheer idiocy of my statement, you are seeing my point). The part about scanning a book was meant to underline my opinion about the stupidity of LA's decision, because physical books can be pirated as well.

Again, it was no justifying, just saying why I facepalm at such decisions.

I've been beta testing rpgs for a while. Started with Pathfinder, have done others. People are complaining about having to pay for a beta, but the truth is, the company has absolutely NO responsibility to even release a beta, let alone give it away when it's a playable product. Some companies do, others don't. As for those complaining about having to pay for it and provide feedback, surely it's better to contribute to a better game. I for one relish the chance to play it ASAP, and love the fact that the announcement that they were working on it coincided with a release for me to get my hands on immediately. And I'm also **** keen to provide whatever feedback I can to make this the best game it can be. If you don't share that attitude, don't buy it, simply wait for the finished product.

"As for not selling the PDFs because "people pirate it", it is as if I said: "I don't bath myself, because I may slip in the bathtub and hurt myself" (if you get the sheer idiocy of my statement, you are seeing my point)."

Except that piracy is actually a serious and widespread issue that harms both the large and small RPG publisher alike, just as it harms home movie sales and video game sales.

Slipping in the tub, not so much.

Venthrac said:

In the RPG industry at least, Paizo, Super Genius Games, Green Ronin, FFG (likely) and all the publishers who push product through sites like DriveThruRPG would probably disagree that releasing content on PDF = Gateway to Piracy.

I know Paizo, definitely, in several conversations recognizes that while piracy is always an issue, whether it's print or digital, when you respect your customers and price products accordingly, you can still generate a VERY sustainable business.

There's 'evidence' on both sides that support piracy being damaging on one hand, and beneficial in the long term on the other, whichever side someone takes is a personal choice.

Regardless, the vast majority of gamers I know, prefer to read the books and game with the pdfs. Not having the PDFs option is a serious barrier to many, and I'm not going to fault them for that.

Venthrac said:

Umm…except that people die from slipping and hitting their head. Which I don't think is less severe than someone stealing a pdf.

But enough about that. People that pirate weren't going to support the book anyway. Most Fans of a product will support it.

Plenty of musicians are still making millions of dollars and people having stealing mp3s for over a decade.

Keep in mind that criticizing the model now is a good thing, as it is still far enough in advance that maybe, just maybe FFG can change their mind and instead release the later books as supplements, hopefully of the same length, just with MORE in them, more setting or whatever instead of 2-3 chapters of near cut and paste rules.

So then we can have a thread about "why should I have to buy some book on fringers when I just want to play Jedi?" Ugh.

Manchu said:

Haha. Post of the day, right there.

Venthrac said:

There are pirates who pirate because the don't want to pay. Those most likely will not become paying customers. Also there is the "blowing it out of proportion" scaremongering by the companies, when the reallity may be different:

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2010/04/us-government-finally-admits-most-piracy-estimates-are-bogus/

Publishers are really good at pulling out numbers out of their arses. 98% of statistics are made up on the spot, including this one. Now, I am not saying that the piracy does not exist, just that as a threat it may be much lower and the sheer greed of the companies may be the fuel for such made up statistics crying about piracy. As I've mentioned earlier in this thread, a mere scapegoat.

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Then there are pirates who do it because their money is tight. If you want them to become customers, you have to do something.

Which approach is better for you if you have problems with money?

This one? (Black Crusade for $60 per physical book, $30 per PDF)

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm=154&esem=2

Or this one? (Pathfinder $50 physical book, $10 PDF)

http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rulebook

Ignore the $10 difference between those two books. Mind you, that I'm not directly comparing two different RPGs, but two pricing policies. Setting high price for PDF and crying that it does not sell well is stupid. Even Steam (digital PC games distributor) has learned that deals like 50% or 75% off generate more income, because the profit from few sold units for high prices is outweighted by the profit from a lot of sold units for lower prices.

But clueless company is clueless.

Take from that what you want.

About "pirating" copyrighted material. Its a difficult issue due to the notion of private property and ownership. These notion are so embedded in our culture and society that even thinking outside this box is both difficult and often ridiculed.

Yochai Benkler's book "Wealth of Networks" (yes I assume its a play on Adam Smith's book "Wealth of Nations" from the 1750s) talks about that and economy in the age of internet and a more or less global (and digital) society. Worth a read.

Furthermore the logic of copyright economy is made fun of in this TED in a rather not-so-kind way. Worth a watch.

Its interesting that the pro Laissez-faire also favour protectionism, which is integral to their notion of a "free market"… which in turn makes it not free. Instead its controlled by oligarchs. Sounds like a conspiracy? Perhaps, but that doesn't make it wrong. I am not saying there are a mighty few sitting the conspiring "against us" so to speak, but that this power is collected in a very little minority is not a good thing. At least not in my opinion.

This said, one cannot change this over night, but its an important perspective to include in the debate.

This won't change Lucas' control over his stuff, won't change the license nor the possibility of us getting PDF books of this rpg. Not by much anyways.

klaymen, I'm sorry but using that report in relation to gaming in disingenuous, that report was related to software and music piracy. In the gaming market the margins are extremely low. Additionally the numbers are vastly different.

For example, if Coldplay sells 9 million albums, 50 thousand people illegally downloading the album has very little actually effect on profit. However if 500-800 people opt to not buy a RPG supplement which might sell 10-12 thousand copies (if a gaming company was extremely fortunate), that's a huge hit. Take a game like Starblazer Adventures which was huge hit among indie games, it sold around 2,000 copies I think… If you even have 200 gamwrs who might be inclined toward a purchase of it opt to download via torrent or usenet, that's like $6000 of lost revenue.

Still chances are those who downloaded it wouldn't necessarily buy it anyways, so its only a theoretical loss of profit.

I don't think the issue with the license is piracy (though ianal, so grain of salt and all). I believe the issue is that pdfs fall under a different license that covers electronic products (that is the consensus on why The One Ring pulled its pdfs, at least).

It's a bit out of touch with the present, but many of these things were developed decades ago, let alone not in the last 5ish years when ebooks and pdfs have taken off.