jordiver2 said:

Star Wars was very effective in teaching me that The Empire were the baddies. So when people start making things like IMPS: The Relentless ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUbmYfAF2i4 )

( +++++Its advanced navigational systems permit rapid hyperspace jumps at a moment's notice. That puts this carrier battle group in the class of the Imperial Fleet's most important and powerful resources.+++++

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carrier_strike_group#History )

I can't help but see Unfortunate Implications.

THE EMPIRE ARE THE BADDIES! YOU DON'T WANT TO BE THE EMPIRE!

I guess that is just the cognitive dissonance you get from living long enough.

--

I probably couldn't resist having Darth Vader step down from his custom TIE fighter on to the decks of the Heavy Carrier Relentless after a 'successful' pacification operation, wearing a flight suit, under a big banner reading 'MISSION ACCOMPLISHED' though.

AluminiumWolf said:

I'm not even 30 yet and I think I'm catching that tune as well. I'm interested in action and drama in my games, but not death. Too much of that lately, and it just keeps rearing it's ugly head.

That'd be a brilliant campaign to run, the crew of the Relentless. Their alignment could be Moronic Evil, or Apathetic Neutral.

I find it amusing that somepeople:

1) implictly call me morally ignorant because I'd like to roleplay the Empire

2) Ignorant of history… I'm a friggin military historian by education… of course I see that Lucas got his inspiration from WWII, Brittish colonialism and the Late Roman Republic's aftermath.

3) Given the sort of people in the Rebel alliance: they remind me of a lot of historically dubious things too.

4) Just as the SW background underlines the villainy of the Empire it also explitly showcased good Imperials over the years in novels and comics.

5) The statement that few would want to play the Empire dumbfounds me. On the contrary in my experience. As soon as the LCG was announced and it turned out DS/Empire was unplayable the entire local store backed out as did many others. Same with Old Republic… everyone played Sith bar a solitary fellow.

6) I don't like the Jedi. Nor the Republicans. They just do everything too awkwardly and too naively. So yeah I'd rather play the ruthless but dutyful officer or bitter war traumatised commando

7) Thanks to the Prequels and the EU the Empire has become a distinct shade of grey due to what came before. And the Remnant evolved into a shade of grey too. Granted with a lot of black bits but certainly no longer moustache twirling evil.

My dream game has always been Imperials.

Let's say… a Dark Trooper, a Bounty Hunter, some kind of TIE Pilot, an Imperial Officer, and then a Sanctioned Force-User or something. Run around hunting for rebel scum.

Well I can only hope for a game system focussing on that.

Though frankly, I find this new method of FFG a bit… annoying. System for this, system for that. Instead of a universal system with add-ons.
I collect Black Crusade and may als do Deathwatch in time but if i want decent rules of space combat i gotta get Rogue Trader too. Instead of keeping all nicely together…

I'm quite sure we also will have Empire specific setting books… hell, the first book covers rogues and bounty hunters etc - thats perfectly fine as someone supporting the Empire too?
Am I missing something here on why that is not being considered? Just look back at SW D20 and Saga Edition - the Beta is just out and we do not know more then that they at the moment have 3 main books planned.

Well I think that people like bad guys when the good guys are boooooring. Not implying anything:)

I guess that one of the best solutions of Star Wars "morality" is Bioware´s Old Republic. Yeah on the start you choose Galactic Republic or Sith Empire. But only during your story you make Light Side/Dark Side choices. You could Dark Jedi Knight but also Good Sith Inquisitor. Funny thing is that in my opinion Republic Light Side is fullblown mary sue and their Dark Side is doctor evil of evilzland. Empire on the other hand, Light is jerk with heart of gold and Dark is magnificent heroic sociopath.

I just hope that Edge of the Empire would allow us to play real scums and villians, not just some Han Solo-ish scroundels. We definitely need Mandalorians.

True nothing is set in stone but i'm referring to the way things are formulated hence I suspect the usual hijinks of the system trying to push you in a certain direction stylewise. Granted in D20 and Saga the gm could even from the start go Empire or Darkside but support of it was very lackluster.

TorogTarkdacil812 said:

Well the thing we have to keep in mind about that, is that BioWare knows how much its fans love Revan…though what they did with that knowledge makes me begin to question my fondness of him.

AluminiumWolf said:

On behalf of my British brethren: OI!

The Empire are unequivocally the bad guys. Star Wars is not a universe of moral complexity. This is demonstrated by he Empire having a planet destroying super weapon (utterly pointless… they can level planets from space anyway, and you are loosing a valuable resources, ie a planet that can support life), which they then actually use to exterminate a pacifistic planet of billions of people (for the sake of a demonstration). The plan makes less sense than that of Bond villan, but it is the kind of thing EVUL characters do in various media to demonstrate they are the bad guys. There are no officers who ask questions and ponder the moral dilemma their orders present to them. They are faceless drones of the evil overlord who are there to get in the way of th heroes, and so meet their fate.

Obviously GMs are free to modulate this to whatever extent they wish for their campaign (and starting with "The Fringe" actually leaves people with the most freedom to do that, unlike the original WEG, which initially made the presumption that players were active agents of the Rebellion), and the EU does already to a certain extent, but as presented in the films there is nothing "anti-empire" to force you to play the good guys. The Empire really only exist as antagonists.

borithan said:

In the movies, yes the Empire is the antagonist. But that is the Empire as an organization, not necessarily as a collective. The only Imperials we really deal with in the movies beside Vader, Palpatine, and a handful of moffs and fleet officers. The rest of the "Imperials" are Stormtroopers and other soldiers who are little more than "mooks" in game terms. They're not really evil, they're just recognized pawns of the evil people; they exist as symbols of evil rather than the embodiment of said evil.

The Expanded Universe teases this out exponentially; with characters like Gilad Pellaeon, Derec LaRone (and his whole crew), Soontir Fel, and even Mara Jade as the Emperor's Hand being a part of the Empire but also being honorable, compassionate, and believing in the GOOD that the Empire (and the Emperor) can accomplish. So "from a certain point of view," the Empire is the answer to the problem and, even as corrupt as some of its leaders are, they believe that there is more good about the Empire than there is bad.

Little do they know that the Emperor is a Sith Lord

I do realize that the movies paint the Imperials as all bad, all the time, but when you're getting into Star Wars gaming you're really joining the Expanded Universe Embrace the fullness therein, and let the Force flow through and strengthen your inner geek.

jordiver2 said:

Hiyas!

I also have those books (the Jedi sourcebook for Saga is waaay much better). IMHO, those things are there for the "creature-feature*" appeal ("what'll be like to play a monster?"). You could play years with those but, I bet they're not the focus of the whole setting.

L

*From the Chill sourcebook

This game is apparently about fringers -- which includes thieves, drug dealers, slavers, and murderers. The issue is not whether the game has a bias for or against evil. So the "evilness" of the Empire as some kind of social institution is not at issue. Rather, the issue is whether the Empire is a suitable protagonist in a game about people who live on the edge of the Empire. I think it should be apparent that the answer is no. The theme of the game is set up in contrast to the Empire. The Empire stands for authority. The protagonists of this game are people who are in conflict, for whatever reason, with authority.

It's not implicitly anti-Empire. It's explicitly anti-Empire. And that's not a bad thing.

A lot of people are approach EotE like it is meant to do everything that anyone could possibly conceive of regarding the Star Wars setting. But it is a discrete game with discrete thematic goals.

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

HAHAHAHA! Awesome response Wolf.

I would suggest the Brits are a bad example anyway, other than they were semi-global (but a lot of empty space between).

I would say Nazi's if they had won would be the best answer. And this game takes place in several 3rd would countries on the edge smuggling stuff in and out of Europe… actually… THAT sounds like a cool game too!

BrashFink said:

Like a Red Alert re-boot I agree, that is a great concept and can actually inform lots of adventure ideas in this setting of Star Wars.

But it's more like, the Nazis won and then everyone found out that Winston Churchill was the actual Nazi Fuhrer, not Hitler, and the Nazis never actually had to conquer England; Churchill just let them roll in and he consolidated his seat of power in London (now Imperial City) as the Emperor of the New World Order after Hitler was executed and everyone thought the war was over. And the Nazis didn't try to conquer freaking Russia, but rather stood by them as allies.

That'd be a fun setting to play in

I strongly presume there will be a pro-imperial book somewhere down the line - assuming of course that the game line survives that long. FFG has made Black Crusade after all. Hell, they've made (well, bought and advanced) Dark Heresy! It's not like the Empire comes even close to the mind-shattering and senseless brutality and wasting of life that is the norm for the Imperium.

Playing a few of the more idealistic imperial servants certainly can be done without speeding over the moral event horizon and painting it with the guts of everyone you met before.

Cifer said:

Yup, FFG's Steve Horvath said this in an interview:

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/23707.html

"A year after that we’ll release Age of Rebellion, which focuses on the classic era of rebellion, with Princess Leia vs. the Empire, Darth Vader, and all that. It will focus on the experience of being a rebel during that time and trying to overthrow the Empire. It will also have its own full line of expansions."

So my guess is we will get an Imperial Sourcebook sometime following the release of Age of the Rebellion.

Yancy

Cifer said:

I'm just looking forward to, at some point, going:

"Oh, Empire stuff. Lots of Empire stuff. Busy with Empire stuff. Just about down with this Empire stuff. This Empire stuff looks good."

oh man. Just make up your own stuff. Why does it have to be "officially" in the book to exist. What did we do back in the day with WEG/D6 Star Wars, we made it up. its not hard to sit down and look at what they have already and design your own mini-Empire source book to your home games. Maybe share it with people here so they can enjoy it too.

Lord Nikon said:

I'd recommend the excellent WEG supplement Imperial Sourcebook. It's not the most exciting read WEG ever put out (as it turns out, sector group organisation can be downright dreary) but it is incredible informative.

agreed on the book, and to the original whiner… I mean poster. Just grab old books and make crap up. Just because its not in the book doesn't mean it can't happen. Think outside the box and you will be a good GM or Player.

Also…Wookieepedia is your friend. Wookieepedia loves you.

Personally, I find the added challenge of playing the underdog to be the most fun. What fun is "I can and will blow up planets without opposition", or playing a mini-hitler? Just my take.

I would do a pro-empire deal post the collapse of The Empire, like post Thrawn. Then at least the challenge would semi-be the same.

I have never been in a all bad-guy party that held together for any length of time, eventually they always break down.

Just my .02

I think they are barking up the right tree, at least.

$hamrock

Allow me to weigh in my two cents:

Star Wars is (or at least was, some folks would argue that Lucas seems bent on killing off his own franchise) a grand and timeless sci-fi retelling of classic fantasy troupes like the Hero's Journey and Good and Evil. The problem is that George's purely binary morality system (Light and Dark Sides of the Force) is actually as much of a handicap as it is a storytelling aid. The good are GOOD, the evil are EVUL, and everyone else gets no screentime. If Star Wars has one flaw, it's that the **** thing is set up to automatically choke any attempt to break out of the setting's simplistic morality.