I agree entirely but still a lot of people will complain nonetheless.

MILLANDSON said:

Move along.

In my view Christian Petersen either needs to take hold of his staff and sort them out, or resign. This was a company I used to respect. Now it's a company that abuses that respect and makes me feel like thy've got their hand permanently in my wallet. This all round is an appalling decision and anyone supporting this deserves all the criticism they get for perpetuating these dreadful business practices. If you want to make money Mr Petersen, be a banker. This is a hobby, not wall street, and it will exist long after you and your grubby paws have been prised loose.

It's not a hobby to them, it's work, they are a company and their goal is to create entertainment in order to generate profit so they can pay their bills. Trust me no one gets rich working in publishing of any kind unless your name is Stephen King or J.K. Rowlin or R.R. Martin, by the way if you want a good inside view on publishing read Charlie Strosses blog on it.

As with Only War, I'm going to pass on the Beta and skim the finished copy at my FLGS if they carry it. I don't pay for beta software, why should I pay for an unfinished manuscript?

Okay, with that out of the way, I admit I'm sort of on the fence. On one hand, special dice. On the other, YAY NO JEDI! Much like Space Marines… well, I'm just not a fan of that kind of character. Been on the recieving end of too many min-maxers and freeforming godmodders to not look at Space Marines and Jedi with anything other then a cynical sneer. So "forcing" players to look at the puny mortal options like the Fringers works for me, I always thought Han Solo and Chewie were more interesting characters anyway. Starting off with characters on the edge just feels better to me.

I do agree that putting Jedi in their own, separate game makes sense. But I would like to know to what extent each game is being tied to the Rebellion Era. There are two campaigns that I've wanted to run for years, but held out in order to see what FFG could offer me, and neither of them take place in this period. This will admittedly only become a major issue with Force and Destiny, due to the implications of being a Jedi in the Rebellion Era.

While making people wait to play a full "Force Users" campaign, ala Old Republic is probably fine in theory, particularly if you're of the "Space Marines ruin 40K RPGs vein", I do think it's going to cause a rift in the community.

Why? Because according to the day 3 Gencon video, the full power of the force isn't officially available until 2015.

So essentially an entire segment of the fan base is either forced to play a version of Star Wars they are not interested in, or they won't play at all, and they'll wait until the version they like comes out.

Personally, I think that's unfortunate. There is enough 'canon' out there now where a core rulebook could have had the rules material required to run Star Wars in any era, and leveraged sourcebooks to enhance the experience of a specific era, much like Saga Edition did. Now, I get that rehashing that release model puts FFG in an awkward situation where they have fans who will have both versions in their collection, but I think ultimately it would have been a whole lot better than having people wait years to get a full ruleset.

Having not seen the Beta rules ($40 plus exchange rate is a bit rich for me for a beta) I'm willing to be proven wrong on the flexiblity and completeness of the rules, but I'm not holding my breath.

VagrantWhisper said:

Well as you allude to it is what they started out with in 40K and it seems to have worked. Started with 'normal' humans in Dark Heresy as the lower power setting and built to Death Watch as the third release which introduced Space Marines. At the start a lot of 40k fans were frothing at the mouth about no Marines and were calling it commercial suicide not to start off with the 40K poster boys. The analogy is pretty strong, just change super human god like Marines to super spiritual warrior-monks. Personally Dark Heresy remains my favourite of the 40K settings.

Interesting that they inherited this approach from Black Industries and ran with it. How different things may have been for both 40K and Star Wars without Black Industries.

Replicant253 said:

Oh don't get me wrong, I certainly appreciate the irony in my own concern. While it seems to be working for 40K, I wonder how well though, and for how long. Some may recall that Only War was originally a Dark Heresy supplement, and not a whole line, and there's certainly a lot of concern that it may be an indication of FFG finally jumping the proverbial 40K shark. For all intents and purposes it remains to be seen if Only War isn't actually an unofficial Dark Heresy 2.0 and releases for DH stop after Only War's release.

The releases for the older materials has slowed down substantially, and even the new lines are starting to feel like they're dangerously close to rehashing the same materials/format (GM Screen, Player Supplement, 3 part adventure, Bestiary, random assortment of supplements). As someone who has the complete collection of all the 40K products I know first hand that it's no small feat to invest in a setting with multiple "Core lines", and I also know first hand that getting buy in for play of the entire collection is generally difficult with a single group.

I also don't believe that FFG will hold themselves to the 3 Core Line format. The 40K line started as a trilogy as well, and was proclaimed as such across multiple media types by then head of the line Ross Watson. Look where the line is now. I, personally, don't need another 50+ book RPG line just because I'm a setting junkie and want all of the options.

I suppose it's safe to say then, that while I have little concerns over the actual gameplay, I do have concerns that FFG has a cash cow on it's hands, and they will either intentionally, or accidentally, handle the line knowing that all it will take is for them to build it, and the fans will come.

Hey folks,

Though a complete newbie to the Fantasy Flight forum, I am nevertheless a long time player of several of their game lines. I just wanted to begin this post by voicing my support of both them, their previous games, and their future endeavours.

On the subject of the new Star Wars game, I'm in full support of everything that I have read so far. Their decision to release it in three separate books, whilst disappointing to those who wanted a more expansive, singular rulebook from the off, does allow for the designers to give more focus to the three "principle" areas of the classic era: that of smugglers/bounty hunters/fringe elements, the Rebel Alliance, and the Jedi and other Force traditions. Some would argue that this means putting restriction upon character options, and maybe it does - but the fact that the three books use a universal system means that you will be able to incorporate anything/everything, if only at a later time. And to those who detest the idea of waiting longer for such options: FFG could just as easily have not began work upon a Star Wars RPG until further down the line; at least this way, you have SOME access to the Star Wars galaxy.

The fact that it's costing so much for a beta does, I'll admit, irk slightly, but it's an irk that I can understand, given the nature of the industry, and the fact that such an annoyance is off-set by one very valid benefit: I'm gaining early access to an RPG that would otherwise be outside of my reach for the next few months. If this is not a big enough boon to some, then the alternative is simple enough - just wait the required time and purchase the full rulebook. No dramas.

Custom dice: I will admit that I was initially worried about how essential these would be to playing the game (in the sense of them being the kind of dice that are 100% required in their individual format), but the fact that they can easily be replaced by your common, very-likely-to-be-on-hand standard dice means that this problem is… well, it's as much of a problem as you want to make it. I know that I, myself, will simply copy out the conversion table and crack on. Besides, we're RPGers - how long will it really be before we memorise the table and conversions and begin rattling off the info with a moment's thought? It happens with Warhammer, it happens with DnD; I'd be very surprised if it couldn't happen here.

The long and short of it is that you are NEVER going to get a game system produced by a company that fits everyone's expectations, that ticks every box on the great, expansive "Player List of Demands". All that any company can do is try to make a game that it thinks allows for its followers to tell the kind of story that their game is supposed to tell. If FFG achieves this with their upcoming titles, and we all find ourselves able to map out and enact incredible Star Wars epics, then does it really matter whether you did so with funky dice?

And if that's really not enough, there's always D6 or D20 available for those who remain less-than-satisfied. For the rest of us, we have a brand new system on hand with which to play in a galaxy far, far away.

TThings I hope to see in the end product:

• Special dice, cards and party mechanics (like in the new Warhammer RPG).

• All Force Powers should have its origin from the movies, books or comics (like the spells in Deciphers LOTR RPG). And let them work as they do in the original source – for instance “force lightning” stuns a person when hit by it – except if you parry it with your ligthsaber or (if you are Yoda) with your hand or dodge it (never seen that happen though ). And it kills you slowly and painfully.

• Character powers are not necessarily balanced in a game term sense with regards to classes, races, skills, ect. But more “in touch” with the world (like the deadly spells in Mongooses Conan RPG).

• More “hard-core” rules less “flavour text” stories. For instance: How can you create a PC/NPC like General Grievous – what are the pros and cons? How does the Bothan spy network work in the game? Not just background stories about it. What happens when your arms and legs are cut off (and you are a force user)? Flying through asteroid fields, creating a base on Hoth, racing a pod race, how do you blow up the Death Star? How do you jam a signal? How do you live as a trader/smuggler? ect.

• Starting (level one?) Sith players NOT being able to cast force lightning or other similar stuff.

• A good explanation why it’s better to wield a single lightsaber with two hands (like a majority do) and not attack with your “choke powers” while in a lightsaber duel.

Being able to play in any setting (Old times, clone wars, the original triology, and after) And be able to play good, neutral or evil.

I really hope you think outside the box and not just make a balanced “MMORG” RPG where we have our tank, controller and assassin characters but instead make a game that bring us, mentally, into a galaxy far far away.

Regards,
Ryan

Ragnvaldr said:

Why would every player have a copy of all the rules? We play with 6 PCs and GM with 1, 2 or maybe 3 copies of the core rules for a game fine. And presumably as you get to know the game you will need to consult the books less and less?

IRONMAN - "I think ommiting jedi from the equasion is a mistake though, same as not having space marines in the first so many 40k books, why not try starting the line by selling the most popular things first"

Jedi have never been, nor will ever be, my favourite thing from Star Wars. I am sure many people feel the same way. Surely every one know Han Solo was always the coolest character? Jedi also tend to break any game balance in any system they turn up. Makes sense to wait a bit for them.

While I said the dice sound like WFRP 3rd (which I like, even though I generally don't like dice pool games), it doesn't sound like it goes the full hog with the tokens and stuff. Also makes sense not too. It drove the price of WFRP 3rd up massively, but it is clear they had decided to make that a niche luxery product (especially as it seems they really just took WFRP as they had to in order to get the 40k RPG liscence). The Star Wars RPG they are going to want to market as widely as possible (or at least as widely as you can in the gaming world). Sounds like the damage mechanics are similar too (though fatigue and stress seem to have been amalgamated). Not that it was a terribly unique system on that side anyway though.

awayputurwpn said:

awayputurwpn said:

Agreed

signoftheserpent said:

Err, I guess I deserve a bunch of criticism because I am supporting them in this product line and choose to do so. Apparently, I'm not allowed to be ok with this?

Psion said:

Though I don't have the exact same issues with min maxers, I do like the idea of an Imperial era game without a focus on Jedi characters.

VagrantWhisper said:

Now I won't disagree 100% with you on this but I will say I do think the model of a core book release schedule has been beneficial to the community in 40K. Unlike TSR and the existence of a large number of settings (Dark Sun, Planescape, Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, etc.), the 40K line has a strange renewal effect to the line. Each "core" setting they release does multiple things.

1. It brings in new players. Lets face it, when a product line gets big, it can be intimidating. New product lines give new players a chance to get in on the ground floor of a subset. Later they can choose to expand their interests into other lines but they are by no means obligated to. And for the most part, the 40K lines are highly compatible. My hope with Star Wars is that the core mechanics dont change AT ALL from core to core UNLESS they are intentionally fixing something that is broken. IN that case, I would like the rules to be incorporated into the previous versions as well. For example, the psychic powers in Rogue Trader functioned differently than in Dark Heresy. They could be used side by side but I would have preferred it hadn't changed.

2. It continues to support existing lines. I've used Rogue Trader supplements in my Dark Heresy books no problem.

3. It offers a different tone for each setting that they can focus on. I'm sure the direction of a smuggler/bounty hunter game will differ from a jedi/sith style game.

Darth Hideous said:

I don't mind the special dice but I hated the party mechanic from warhammer, the slotting mechanic from warhammer, and the cards being the only reference for the core set. (kind of fixed with players guide and gm guide but still hate having to use cards when wanting a reference guide.)

I would hope that eventually any game could be played but dont mind that they are focusing different core books.

I hope they find a nice balance between mechanics that let players feel they each have an equally important part without feeling like character XYZ makes me useless.

DeckOfManyThings said:

I also enjoy the opportunity to playtest and provide feedback with a book that will have errors but is likely playable.

Kahadras said:

I didn't find those aspects clunky but there are aspects of WFRP that I didn't like and would agree are not ideal. In particular, I didn't care for the party sheet mechanic. I also didn't care for the whole slotting talents aspect. It felt to video game-like to me.

borithan said:

I agree and hope the tokens and such are not part of the game.

Han Solo FTW! (and he shot first damnit!!!!)

It seems that, possibly, what people want is another "Old Republic" experience. And I'm sure FFG could have caught a ride on the wings of the MMO to really push this tabletop RPG hard, but they didn't. Instead, they chose to focus on the Classic era, and for that I applaud them.

No one is being "forced" to play a "version of Star Wars" that they don't like.

1) If you really don't like the look of the game, don't buy it. No one is reaching into your pockets or compelling you to pay for something you don't want. Realize that FFG can't please everyone at the same time, stop whining, and go play something else until they publish something you do like.

2) The idea that there are "different versions" of Star Wars is weird. It's all one universe with one timeline (well, that is I suppose unless you're into the Infinities line or playing Alt-U campaigns, which are good fun in their own right). I like the fact that the early Rebellion Era is getting a lot of love. Reading books like Zahn's Allegiance and Choices of One reignited my interest in this era and, heck, with this new edition I could see myself running a campaign very similar to the adventures of LaRone, Graves, Brightwater, and Quiller.

Now all that is easy for me to say because I'm actually a fan of this edition before even receiving my copy, but then again I love Star Wars and I like gettin' my game on a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.

awayputurwpn said:

You, sir, deserve an applause.

Shakespearian_Soldier said:

Agreed. Also, as a WFRP 3rd edition player, the seeming hybrid between the WFRP core mechanics, and a more traditional RPG format sounds excellent. WFRP has very innovative and fun mechanics, especially with the dice, and lends itself to a game that does combat, social, investigation, and exploration well, which is very rare in many RPGs. I had no interest in a new Star Wars RPG, but reading when they chose to set it, and the mechanics they chose to include, has me very interested in this version. I applaud FFG for taking some of the best bits of one of the most innovative RPGs in recent memory, and hybridized it to appeal to a wider audience.

Also, for those hating the dice, I found with new players, symbols are easier for them to understand than actual numbers in most cases (it was very true for my wife, WFRP's dice, cards, and tokens made the game much easier for her to understand). I think that is why many of FFG's board games use them. I find Descent 2e's dice symbols easier to read than looking up a numerical chart, or doing quick spot math (even though the math isn't that hard). Now for veteran players, numerical dice can usually be understood quickly, because the kind of calculations they are used to in RPGs can be done quickly for them. I assume part of the reason for doing custom dice (money is probably at least part of the equation), is to appeal to new players.

awayputurwpn said:

While I do agree with you in theory, in the practical world, I'd dare say the sentiment you present takes a far too simplistic view on the world.

There's a certain "je ne c'est quoi" in being able to participate in the rush of community and emotion that surrounds a new edition of a favorite game, or a game that has a long legacy between editions. There's people on these boards that have probably been waiting for an edition of Star Wars they like for longer than some of the other participants have been alive.

Telling them to stop whining is a bit disengenuous. Game editions are like a little club, or a shared language. There's a certain comraderie in knowing that when you go to play "Star Wars" you're all going to understand what that means, and organized play is for some, the ultimate expression of that fact. It sucks when you don't feel like you're going to be a part of that community, for whatever reason. It sucks even more when someone says 'hey, maybe in 20 years they'll finally get around to making that game you like'.

Just sayin'

I don't really understand all the cry's of outrage at the Beta being a $30 book. If you want a limited edition early acces version pay for it, if you'd rather wait for the full release, wait it out. Looking at the Gen-Con vids that popped up the book looks like many a companies finished product.

Also I'd rather have a "Beta" version that costs me half of the "full" book (presumably) instead of a sudden switch in game mechanics where I'd either have to print out massive Erratas to buy new sourcebooks or buy my full price core book all over again cause they noticed some things dont quite work out the way they should and do full revisions within the first year of release. I am thinking of buying the Beta when it comes to international waters just to be able to test it out, also like the fact its a softcover book to simply carry along on any train travel or such (like a sort of "light" version).

I say well done FFG! Hope the Beta works out for you guys and we get that little extra streamlining as well as the chance to play a year in advance!

So next up: Dice!

I really liked the Warhammer dice system, simply because it takes away from the simple "I rolled a 7, a 5, a 4 and a 10!". Thats what some of our less experienced players often shouts out while in combat looking at me to say the comforting words that he actually hit the barn door he was aiming for. The dice system used by WHFRP makes it easier on the player to actually see what he did, as all the results are in that one simple pool of dice. I like many, if not all, frowned at those dice with weird symbols and colours. Yet as they where explained to me and I actually saw them work in the game I believe they run rather smoothly, no calculating mods after a roll, the simple excitement of seeing them land on a certain symbol combination that you know kicks in some special ability, it all came together there.

So finally, before I stop with simply giving my take on the new RPG line my players are doomed to play I believe that the 3 book structure really works well. Entering another game where the core book has all kinds of different character classes and campaign idea's is what we are used to mostly, yet I always find myself buying that core book and adding alot of books to my first purchase to use that core book with the setting I like and the character types my players like to focus on. So basicly I dont see much difference to this model, instead though I can now pick up one of the 3 Core books to allready have that specific tone I'd like to play with, that specific cast of characters I'd like to run with, and that allready expanded setting that attracts me. Only can hope that they dont change out to much between editions (so having a specific jedi mechanic/Rebel mechanic/ Rimmer mechanic is fine) just keep them compatible with ease please!

I for one didn't quite like the D20 version that much and cant quite get a hold of the WEG version anymore. So to me its a future for SW RPG'ing with new material coming out! Thanks FFG!

UncleArkie said:

This selling beta copies is a joke.

signoftheserpent said:

And you can't be passionate about your work? I used to work for Blizzard and Jagex and Frogster and a few other games companies, I loved it. I was passionate about it as hell, but I knew that it was a job, that it was an office, that I had to perform to a certain level and that even if it was ok that I had tattoos and wore a tee with an odd meta print on it and and that I had to be professional.

You suffer from what community managers call "Unique Snowflake Syndrome". USS is basically the notion that you are really entitled and should get what ever you want all the time and that you know better than people who live, breath and work this for thousands of hours. It might be your hobby, but it's their life.

That doesn't mean that your not entitled to an opinion, it just means that you could be a lot less smug about it. So you can sit on the bench and complain about something you have no idea about (unless you were at GenCon and got a copy of the beta) or you can wait an try it out.

To paraphrase the great troll Steve Jobs "If you don't create something yourself, shut up and stop urinating on people who do, your argument is invalid".

/End rant

Sorry if I come off as harsh, but I am just tired of the self entitled crap that seems to come out of these boards, discussion sure, opinions great. But don't call creators stupid unless you have proven that you can do better.

cd8dman said:

I cant believe that they are using the poorer whfrp custom dice model --- since its inception there has been but one game of it in the local game stores, and that was during the launch, since then the 4 stores in town still have the original boxes, while at the same time, there is at least one weekly game in each of the 4 stores using the d100 system of whfrp2/rogue trader/dark heresy/deathwatch

currently in one of the stores is a d6 star wars weg and a star wars saga campaign ongoing

please FFG, bring back the minis, and the mats

c8tiff said:

I like minis :-)

But I do not want battlemats or minis or rules designed around it in an RPG, thats part of the problem I have with the iron kingdoms rpg, though you can well play it without minis, I hate that sizes and stuff is written with models in mind (mid base, large base).

Keep it abstract

VagrantWhisper said:

Disingenuous and simplistic, eh? I've never had both of those descriptors applied to me in one forum post. I also don't think "disingenuous" is the right word. I was being sincere when I typed that though in hindsight, perhaps whining was a strong term. I simply meant that there's so much out there to enjoy that you do yourself a disservice by angrily complaining about something you haven't even experienced. I speak of course to a hypothetical detractor.

I offer my previous statement, reworded: If you don't like the "club" or agree with its purpose, don't join. It's not simplistic; it's sensible. If you're really not going to enjoy being a part of the club, don't pay your dues and don't get involved. There are several clubs that you might like more.

I could also flip that around: (speaking, once more, to a hypothetical detractor) If you like the "community" surrounding the "club," and you value the "emotional" connection, then you need to ask yourself if that "je ne sais quoi" is worth more than your prejudicial opinions regarding the edition. If so, then try and enjoy the new edition! Approach it with a more positive attitude, recognizing that FFG has a good history of producing really enjoyable games, and adopt a new point of view: FFG are making it possible for us to get the rules in hand sooner rather than later (realize also that it wasn't feasible for them to do it for free), and have made a plan to make adjustments to the final product based on the reviews of thousands who are eager and willing to help out for their love of Star Wars (or roleplaying, or Fantasy Flight Games). In other words, if you think that the community is worth the effort, put some investment (time & money) into it and see what happens. But if you don't think it's worth it, then don't put anything into it. Doesn't cost you anything, and you let other people have their fun.

There are a lot of Star Wars games, among them Star Wars roleplaying games that are all very different in nature and composition. There is still a thriving community for Saga Edition, and I know of a lot of people who still avidly play WEG's d6 edition and the d20 OCR/RCR. If you are one of those people who have been around since the "beginning," and have played these editions and have been waiting for an edition of Star Wars that you like, what is it about the previous editions that you dislike? I mean, if none of the extant Star Wars RPG systems are to your liking, then what RPG system do you like? Maybe the solution is to just port rules from one system over to the Star Wars universe.

One thing is for sure: (speaking to the hypothetical detractor) angrily complaining (I.e. "whining") on the forums about something you haven't experienced doesn't really accomplish anything. Having discussion about how to improve or make houserules to an edition is one thing, but to bait the forums by accusing the game devs of money grubbing won't get you what you want. I'd suggest you, the hypothetical detractor, put your energy into making improvements to the new edition or into porting the rules from your favorite edition over to the Star Wars universe.

I realize that would be a lot of work, but then the enjoyment gained from having worked at something (speaking from experience) is pretty darn sweet.