My weekly group has been playing Dark Heresy and Deathwatch and plan to start a Rogue Trader campaign next week. A few of us also play 40k tabletop (even Necromunda) and have miniatures and terrain coming out of our ears. We're kind of a middle-of-the-road group that enjoys equal shares of story and hack-n-slash, having also played other RPGs.

Early on, I was surprised to see that the rule books didn't mention using miniatures (at least not much). I figured GW would want FF to integrate miniature combat into the game in order to sell more minis. We started our campaigns trying to use miniatures, but drifted away to a more loose, cinematic/storytelling style that didn't require minis because that seemed to work best with the rule set. Now, I stare at my shelves of 40k minis and terrain as they gather dust, wishing I could better implement them in the RPG.

Anyway, I had a few questions:

1.) What is your scale for measuring distances? Are you using one inch to represent one meter or two? Or something completely different. Neither seems right when measuring the "heroic scale" minis.

2.) Have you noticed ranged combat being overpowered when using miniatures? Was there a need to house rule the shooting distances to even up it's balance with melee combat? I'm used to the much shorter shooting distances from the 40k wargame. For instance, in 40k a lasgun has a max distance of 24" (table distance), in Dark Heresy it can fire up to 100 meters (which could possibly translate to either 100 or 50 table inches) which seems like REALLY long ways. Even a laspistol has a first range increment of 30m (so 30" or 15"). Seems like a good ranged fighter could consistently shoot a rifle all the way across a 6' gaming table with no range penalty and hit everything in between (discounting cover of course). Please let me know if I'm over-thinking this.

3.) Is there any Internet resource or blog that has already laid out some good guidelines for minature play? I doubt I'm the only one using minis so please help me not over-think and try to re-invent the wheel. I searched google and the FF message boards, but didn't have much luck finding anything.

Thanks much, enjoy the Grimdark and the Warham.

hewhowalks said:

Hey There.

1) I use a Chessex Battlemat, large. anything beyond this is sniping distances, in my opinion- but yeah, 1m = 1inch. the idea is to be able to use BOTH methods when it suits best, plus wargamers love minis, as you say. The only odd rule I got is the 4m charge distance minimum doesn't have to be a straight line, and every second diagonal is worth 2 rather than 1.

2) True, in some ways, but it changes the thought processes for the GM and players as the environmental interaction is different. Modern weapons dominate the modern world - you wanna knife someone, you gotta get through the gun first, and it transfers. my CC problems in keeping my fights over 3-5 rounds is irritating, in the least, but fun is had, so that's awesome.

3) Not that I know of. Use your wargaming instincts though, and it'll carry you through… or start your own blog based on your experiences!

hewhowalks said:

SInce Dark Heresy FFG have tended to play down the miniatures and battlemap angle. Deathwatch in particular has mechanics which are awkward on a battlemap, Hordes in particular.

Ranged isn't usually that overpowering. Most fights are close range gunfights in rooms, tunnels and alleyways. If you are doing a long range shoot out (50m+ between opponents) then you are probably best doing it narratively, at least until opponents get closer, but as an investigaty/social game Dark Heresy doesn't feature too many of those. In Deathwatch, where the melee characters can have jump packs, then the melee character is actually overpowered compared to many of the characters.

There shouldn't really be any difference between using minis and not using minis in terms of what the weapons do. Either the characters are within 30m of the enemy or they aren't! I don't think a comparison with 40K is much use as 40K doesn't really have a groundscale (or at least one that makes any sense at all!). I personally prefer to stick minis on the tabletop only for big drawn out fights where keeping track of where things are in relation to each other might slip as it goes on. For your average small ambush or quick dust up I (or whoever is GM) just describe what's going on and if someone isn't sure how far away a target is I work it out myself.

One of the main reasons to use minis for me is to have a focus of what the characters look like rather than for 'skirmish wargaming' fights out. When we do use minis we tend to use a battlemat/tiles and use one square as 2m. Once you get used to putting stuff halfway through a square it gets quite freeform without causing too much confusion. And also allows you to get long distances on a reasonable sized table. Having said that, if there is a sniper involved he is usually off the board somewhere as I don't really want the players to feel they can charge up to them easily.

A Lasgun fires up to 300 Metres.^^

And if you compare this to modern weapons, that ****** short, but it works for such a game.

My group tried Miniatures but we stoped because of the lack of terrain and the size of large battlefields.

So we use MapTools now, its freeware and allows to create battlefields even with different field of view settings etc.

Also you can create Tokens with preset makros so you can instantly push the makro with Skill-Tests, Weapon Damage, Initiative etc.

Combat is realy fast that way and does not soack so much time so we have more time left to actualy roleplay while the combat is still very tactical but atleast fast too.

I've used plenty of miniatures for my games. I'll try to share some thoughts.

Scale is very important. I use different scales for different encounters in order to create different challenges. Due to practical reasons, the table I play on is hardly ever more than two meters across. So if I want a scenario where the groups CC specialists will shine I say "these two meters represent 20 meters in the game." If I want a scenario where the ranged specialists will shine I say "these two meters represent 1 km in the game". And of course any steps between those two extremes will create different challenges. Make sure to be very clear on how many meters equals one inch on the table.

I use a clear plastic tablecloth that I bought cheap. On one side I've drawn a square grid of dots 1" apart with permanent marker. Onthe other side I use whiteboard markers to draw maps and wipe them off when we are done. Since the grid is on the "down side" of the plastics, I can even use cleaning gents to remove residue on the top side.

Sometimes I print maps i find on the internet or photocopy from books and place them on the table under the plastic cloth. That way I can easily mark things on the playing table and still keep the map fresh for another occasion. Somtimes I can even be bothered to use some gaming terrain for extra 3D-fun. Old Necromunda parts, the boards from Space Hulk and any general WH40k-terrain has been used.

I like to build my own minis for the acolytes. That takes a lot of time and is very appreciated by the players. Especially since none of us can draw at all, it is nice to have visualisations. Once a conversion of an imperial beastman stormtrooper turned out so nice that I had to incorporate them in the story only to get to use the model… Thes standard 40k models will of course match very differently with the scale of the map. This has so far not been a problem.

So my answers would in short be:
1) I make a point of changing scales in order to present different challenges.

2) That depends on the scale I set and how much terrain I bring or how many walls I draw on the map. Variation is your friend.

3) On dakkadakka.com you can find a lot of resources concerning miniatures and how they are modded. It's not DH-specific thouh.

Best of luck!

We have used changing scales in Deathwatch, as you do find yourself fighting on battlefields in that situation. However, it does cause problems, as with the mechanics as written is matters whether a character is 1 metre or 2 metres away. You can just hand wave it, but it does make a difference.

However, I personally feel that most Dark Heresy games won't need to fiddle with the scale. In the small scale covered in Dark Heresy you only really need to detail short range firefights. Most long range firefights the detail of a mapped battlefield isn't needed. You just need to know the distance between the players and their targets (keep track of it on a piece of paper) and whether each side has cover or not. Only at close distances (as I said, about 50m apart or so) are you likely to find yourself in a position where knowing specifically where players are relative to NPCs and each other is vital and you will need to map it out.

Just a few places for inspiration

http://inq28.blogspot.co.uk/

http://spikyratpack.blogspot.co.uk/

http://miniatextures.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/cabinet-close-up.html

terrain:

http://s3.zetaboards.com/The_Ammobunker/topic/7426716/1/

FieserMoep said:

Well theoretically the range of a laser weapon (of any kind) is limited only by the skill of the user… Actually I have toyed with the idea of reducing range penalties for las weapons as they shouldn't really have recoil like SP or Bolt…

The ranges listed for weapons are for accurate shots remember. Most pistols can shoot out to 100, most rifles out to 400 and most heavy and sniper weapons out beyond 1000m. Also don't try applying real life physics to futuristic grim dark laser technology

Why not?

Currently I have never seen a group of players that actually use Las weapons once they get enough money to buy any sort of SP, let alone Bolt. They literally have no advantages. Ammo is cheap for SP, the pen is better for SP and very few las weapons have a full auto setting. So I'm thinking about changing the rules to reflect that actual advantages for las weaponry. There is a reason the IG use las weaponry and it isn't because Las is particularly good at killing things. It has to be because you point it, press a button and the laser goes where you pointed it. That way any old frothing feral warrior can be given one, and told what to do. Sure if it breaks he can't fix it (after all only a techpriest can) but he doesn't have to learn about recoil compensation, windage, or any of the other physics involved in firing a gun!

… and because there aren't any moving parts, making them Reliable and much less prone to Jams.

The Guard needs weapons that are like the men who use them: Simple, easy and reliable. And Expendable.

They don't have to pack the meanest punch, because you compensate by adding extra millions of them as and where needed.

Darth Smeg said:

^This^
Also the fact that the majority of enemies the imperium faces are actually quite low-tech. For example, how many enemies of the imperium have personal force fields, or high end armour that can negate energy weapons - answer is not many. The reason there aren't so many is that Imperium threw the Legion Astartes (and their boltguns) in the form of the crusades at all major xenos threats 10 thousand years ago, and while some new threats have appeared (the Tau development being accelerated, the Necrons awakening, the Tyranids entering our spiral of the galaxy again) for the most part the Imperium is fighting off enemies who at most have bulletproof armour or are just inherently tough. As such a mass produced, reliable energy weapon suits the Guard far better than any solid projectile or more exotic weapon.