News about WFRP at Gen Con..?

By k7e9, in Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay

Posted at

korknadel said:

@James Sparrow:

You're right: I can develop my own adventures and stuff and pick NPCs, monsters, trade items, locations and stuff from v1 or v2 material or from anywhere else.

But then I still don't have the cards.

And of course, there is a lot of great stuff in Liber Fanatica, but I am not fond of printing and laminating the cards myself. I am not good at it, too.

So the reason why I want the line to be continued and I want new products is mostly the material. And there are still things I am missing. Most of all the leeches and worms of the Marienburg marshland. And although adventures of former editions are easily converted to 3rd ed, I still like to see adventures that are designed with the mechanics of 3rd ed. in mind (like the progress tracker).

korknadel said:

@James Sparrow:

You're right: I can develop my own adventures and stuff and pick NPCs, monsters, trade items, locations and stuff from v1 or v2 material or from anywhere else.

But then I still don't have the cards.

And of course, there is a lot of great stuff in Liber Fanatica, but I am not fond of printing and laminating the cards myself. I am not good at it, too.

So the reason why I want the line to be continued and I want new products is mostly the material. And there are still things I am missing. Most of all the leeches and worms of the Marienburg marshland. And although adventures of former editions are easily converted to 3rd ed, I still like to see adventures that are designed with the mechanics of 3rd ed. in mind (like the progress tracker).

You don't have the cards? Now admittedly, I own all the boxed sets, and I don't know if you do or not, but I think there are far, far too many cards already and the last thing the game needs is more. There is more than enough flexibility in the huge mass of existing material to work with. Leeches and worms? Just pick a simple monster as a basic template and add action and talent cards that do the kinds of things you want worms and leeches to do. Change the name of the action or talent to something that sounds appropriate. I'm sure there's an action card somewhere that would adequately describe Monstrous Suck.

(Don't take this as being directed as you personally, but I remember when people complained that the WFRP3 boxed set was not a complete game, WFRP3 fans leapt up to defend the game saying the core box was a complete game and you didn't need anything else. Now it seems that WFRP3 fans don't believe that anymore.)

Either way, the point I'm trying to make is we're almost certainly not going to get what we want. So we have a choice: abandon the game altogether or work with what we have. Anyone who loves the setting more than the rules will work with what we have, and make up the rest if they need to.

Cheers

Sparrow

Posted at

James Sparrow said:

(Don't take this as being directed as you personally, but I remember when people complained that the WFRP3 boxed set was not a complete game, WFRP3 fans leapt up to defend the game saying the core box was a complete game and you didn't need anything else. Now it seems that WFRP3 fans don't believe that anymore.)

i don't think the major complaint here is that there are too little cards. there are alot. but the distinct lack of care from FFG about their fanbase and a total ignorance on requests is what bothers me, for example

Posted at

nephtys said:

James Sparrow said:

(Don't take this as being directed as you personally, but I remember when people complained that the WFRP3 boxed set was not a complete game, WFRP3 fans leapt up to defend the game saying the core box was a complete game and you didn't need anything else. Now it seems that WFRP3 fans don't believe that anymore.)

i don't think the major complaint here is that there are too little cards. there are alot. but the distinct lack of care from FFG about their fanbase and a total ignorance on requests is what bothers me, for example

I still think the general tone is that folk want more stuff. If they didn't, the lack of news and information wouldn't really matter. I mean we don't need an Elf book, but people still clamour for one. We could just take the existing Wood Elf and apply suitable careers. Want High Elf Magic? Just allow access to all colours not just one. It's done. But no, people want a unique set of careers, actions, spells and so on.

Sure, FFG and GW don't seem to care about the fanbase, but we've known that for years. We're a hobby, they're businesses. Their bottom line is not keeping fans happy; their bottom line is maximising profit. They do this by creating a buzz about new games, reaping the short-term rewards and then moving on when the profit margin shrinks below a certain level. We knew this before WFRP3, but guess what, we fell for it again. It's going to happen to the people who buy Star Wars in a few years when the new game has lost its shine and sales drop off. It might take a bit longer because it's a much bigger brand and it has a more convenient format, but it's going to happen.

I was at an annual get-together this weekend with old friends from my university games soc. There was a guy there running Star Wars with the old West End Games system. He wasn't interested in D20, couldn't a **** about the FFG game, and certainly wasn't bothered by missing supplements. He just got on and used an old, unsupported system to run a game for eight players who had a really good time.

Cheers

Sparrow

Posted at

There was a thing I wanted to write here but did not have time. So here’s my 2 pennies in this discussion maybe with a little off-topic.
WFRP never had to much luck. First was Hedgehog, then BI and after that came FFG. The line for WFRP always had only few years and died. Someone wrote that at GenCon seminar FFG said :
Definitely not the case. Someone asked a similar question at the seminar, and they were rather emphatic about their continued support of the all the game lines involved.
And that one more time recalled me about the situation with 2nd ed. All fans out there asked about the future of the line and will FFG continue it and they heard the same answer as we hear this year. So don’t worry we will continue the line and support it. For me those are empty words. Fans of the 2nd edition as we complained about the lack of information and so on but it did not changed anything. FFG is a company and it must make money like all business. When the sales are getting to low they must make a change to make profit. And then they made the 3rd edition. Now the situation is the same.
I think that for FFG the WFRP 3e was an experiment. A good experiment but only an experiment. It showed all the good and bad sides of releasing this type of a game and releasing it with cards and tokens. For me the best thing with WFRP 3e is the custom dice mechanic and the worst are cards, tokens stance puzzle, thin books with not too much stuff in it and a character sheet that I must have a new one for every career or Rank.
In WFRP 3e we are missing to much information about the Empire, the history of the world, the big cities, festivals and so on. And we are getting to much cards, tokens and all other useless stuff. Don’t get me wrong it a good system but with to much junk. I have all the expansions and I really think it’s to much of it. We have the rules and many supplements so we can play this game for many months or even years now. We can also make our own elven careers, spell and so on. We can create what we want for this system but I would like to have it made by FFG. So those who want can stay with this edition but I would gladly see a new one.
So if I may wish something then it would be a completely new edition of WFRP. The one that will looks like Star Wars RPG: The Edge Of The Empire. With custom dice mechanic and big hardcover books with all the information that You would need for a session with friends. The game that to play I would only need the custom dice, a rulebook, a character sheet and a pencil. So I can sit down where ever I want with my friends and play it without needing a big table.
SO FFG GIVE US A NEW GOOD EDITION OF WFRP! A better one then the 3rd.

Oh and by the way playing WFRP 3e Lite is a waste of time. Tried it a year ago and rewriting cards on a special A4 paper is stupid. And I will say it once – never more! We really need a new edition that would have all the good thing form 3ed and many many more new better ones.

Posted at

I like the cards and bits of the 3rd edition. It's the main reason why i moved from D&D 3.5 or DSA "Das Schwarze Auge" (huge german roleplay game) to WFRP 3rd Edition.

No more you have all these books on the table, only to look up this or that in every session, it was annoying like hell. Now everything is just on cards.
I need less table space than i do with DSA or D&D. Also, looking up rules and what not in all these books (it's really terrible in DSA) eats up an immpressive amount of time, it's just annoying. Also the huge amount of sheets in games like DSA pissed me off in the long run.

Warhammer Lite is indeed a waste of time, i said that already when all of a suddon bunch of people complained about cards & bits and that there is no way to play it without the materials. Now there is a Lite version and the same people still complain.
Indeed, it was a god **** waste of time.

Posted at

macd21 said:

Ah the nerdrage! Lol.

Seriously people - we have a complete game. We don't actually need anything else. We already have far more than many games get, anything else at this point is a bonus.

Mac,

Oh, you don't know the half of it. Without FFG to talk to, I get to talking to myself at night ;)

gollum…gollum….

:)

jh

Posted at

I think one major cause of the drum-beating for more is that the Old World has so much out from earlier which we want to see in this edition.

Ironically, I don't think 2nd or 1st had a "big elf book" though, and that's our most-requested thing by look of it. To be fair to FFG, if they were trying to develop unique Wood Elf and High Elf magics in particular they would be playtesting it (don't know if that is what they are playtesting).

As it stands you've got rules thorugh high level, monsters, magic, blessings, fights, all 4 ruinous powers, extra dwarfness, orgres and halfings.

I can if need be happily convert earlier edition adventures and make my own adventures, including using some 3 act template FFG has put out for grist, and adapting adventures for other systems to this one when they suit flavourwise.

However, I will also happily give FFG my money for stuff they put out - hey FFG here's money, please come and get it! PODS for all the other Colleges and Faiths, Necromancy and Dark Magic Pods, Hedge Magic Pods, Item and Gear Pods….

Posted at

valvorik said:

Ironically, I don't think 2nd or 1st had a "big elf book" though, and that's our most-requested thing by look of it. To be fair to FFG, if they were trying to develop unique Wood Elf and High Elf magics in particular they would be playtesting it (don't know if that is what they are playtesting).

In view of some action cards (both PC's and NPC's) I doubt they play test too much anything they release preocupado.gif

Posted at

ragnar63 said:

Please leave the teenage text speak on your mobile where it belongs. Putting LOL after an insult only places you in the bracket of the moronic tennager. Anybody who uses the word nerd as an insult generally falls into the bracket of an overweight ex-jock whose brains have been scrambled by too many steroids and head hits by linemen. and I speak as a decidely not overweight middle aged ex-jock who has still got two brain cells to put together. Emirikol has put more into this line from the outside than I think many at FFG have, certainly in terms of support and promotion.

Oooh dear, it seems I've hit a nerve…

ragnar63 said:

In terms of a complete game system, no we haven't, not unless you expect people to get their scenarios and campaigns from the 1st or 2nd edition. Compared with the scenario / campaign output for the 40K rpgs WFRP has been largely starved of good content. We have loads of cards, yes, and tokens but there are still glaring absences which people have been asking for from day one of its release.

Umm, no. We have a complete game. We have plenty of PC options, adversaries and system rules. And as for scenarios - what the hell are you talking about? We have loads. Altogether there is more than enough material. Could there be more? Of course - there's always more that could be published for any game. But that doesn't make a game incomplete. FFG have covered all the bases required. They could stop publishing WFRP tomorrow and it wouldn't really matter, they've published everything we need them to.

Do I want to see more from them? Of course. Will I weep if I don't? No. I'll keep on playing with what they've given us.

And that's what gets me about these threads - the rage from fans because the company isn't producing the stuff fast enough. Guess what: the company wants to sell you stuff. They want to produce more material so you can give them money. They aren't holding back new products or keeping information from you just to irritate you. The publish at the pace they can afford - a pace generally driven by demand, by the way. The number of supplements they make in a year is essentially decided by the distributors, who tell them "we will buy X amount of material from you this year". As for why they don't communicate with the community much, the attitude found in this thread (and ones like it) is one reason. For another, see what happens when they do give out information that turns out to be a mistake (such as the Only War debacle) - again people get up in arms. Keeping the information flow to a minimum hurts them less than dealing with fans who accuse them of being mercenary capitalist scum all the time.

Posted at

macd21 said:

ragnar63 said:

Please leave the teenage text speak on your mobile where it belongs. Putting LOL after an insult only places you in the bracket of the moronic tennager. Anybody who uses the word nerd as an insult generally falls into the bracket of an overweight ex-jock whose brains have been scrambled by too many steroids and head hits by linemen. and I speak as a decidely not overweight middle aged ex-jock who has still got two brain cells to put together. Emirikol has put more into this line from the outside than I think many at FFG have, certainly in terms of support and promotion.

Oooh dear, it seems I've hit a nerve…

ragnar63 said:

In terms of a complete game system, no we haven't, not unless you expect people to get their scenarios and campaigns from the 1st or 2nd edition. Compared with the scenario / campaign output for the 40K rpgs WFRP has been largely starved of good content. We have loads of cards, yes, and tokens but there are still glaring absences which people have been asking for from day one of its release.

Umm, no. We have a complete game. We have plenty of PC options, adversaries and system rules. And as for scenarios - what the hell are you talking about? We have loads. Altogether there is more than enough material. Could there be more? Of course - there's always more that could be published for any game. But that doesn't make a game incomplete. FFG have covered all the bases required. They could stop publishing WFRP tomorrow and it wouldn't really matter, they've published everything we need them to.

Do I want to see more from them? Of course. Will I weep if I don't? No. I'll keep on playing with what they've given us.

And that's what gets me about these threads - the rage from fans because the company isn't producing the stuff fast enough. Guess what: the company wants to sell you stuff. They want to produce more material so you can give them money. They aren't holding back new products or keeping information from you just to irritate you. The publish at the pace they can afford - a pace generally driven by demand, by the way. The number of supplements they make in a year is essentially decided by the distributors, who tell them "we will buy X amount of material from you this year". As for why they don't communicate with the community much, the attitude found in this thread (and ones like it) is one reason. For another, see what happens when they do give out information that turns out to be a mistake (such as the Only War debacle) - again people get up in arms. Keeping the information flow to a minimum hurts them less than dealing with fans who accuse them of being mercenary capitalist scum all the time.

Just wanted to say, yes, there could be more, alot more….. If i look at other RPG systems, which are huge, hundreds of scenarions, campaigns etc. Yes there could be more…. alot more, Warhammer Fantasy is an huge world.
Sadly, so far no company managed it to get WFRP that far. It always dies too quickly.

Imo, we don't have a complete game if i compare WFRP 3rd to some other RPGs.

Posted at

Himmelweiss said:

Just wanted to say, yes, there could be more, alot more….. If i look at other RPG systems, which are huge, hundreds of scenarions, campaigns etc. Yes there could be more…. alot more, Warhammer Fantasy is an huge world.
Sadly, so far no company managed it to get WFRP that far. It always dies too quickly.

Imo, we don't have a complete game if i compare WFRP 3rd to some other RPGs.

Yes, there could be a lot more. That doesn't make it an incomplete game. A complete game doesn't need to have hundreds of scenarios, campaigns etc. Not every game needs to be DnD or Pathfinder. A complete game covers the most important character options (which has been done - we have a magic, divine, social and combat supplements + another for high rank play), antagonists (done) and some scenarios to give you an idea as to what the setting is like and what adventures are supposed to be like.

The one area I think we're lacking in is an elf book, but that's about it.

Posted at

"doesn't need hundreds of scenarios"

Sure, if you're looking for a sandbox system. Any company can put out a sandbox system.

Competent companies that actually care about their fans, and don't treat them like little cash machines, participate in their forums and put out stuff other than stat blocks and rules.

..

Posted at

My main complaint is just no updated news and no FF people on the forums to give said news

Posted at

You all know that this discusion is pure speculation becouse nobody from FFG will anwser or take part in it?

We can say what we would like to see, what we want and speculate but FFG will do what they want. So I'm perfectly sure that some of us will say give us a new expansion for 3e, others give us a 3.5 or 4th edition but that means nothing. FFG is a company and must make money. So I think that everything is possible, and by everything I mean everything that will make more money for the company. So in case of RPGs the most buyed are core set so who knows if we will see a new edition if this is not selling well. But that's just pure speculations.

I'm sure we will not know anything until the release of The Enemy Within. Maybe the situation will be more clear after it. But thats just a maybe.

Cheers

B.E.

Posted at

Emirikol said:

"doesn't need hundreds of scenarios"

Sure, if you're looking for a sandbox system. Any company can put out a sandbox system.

Competent companies that actually care about their fans, and don't treat them like little cash machines, participate in their forums and put out stuff other than stat blocks and rules.

…

You're kidding, right? You actually think that a game isn't complete until it has hundreds of published scenarios? Do you even know what a sandbox system is?

Y'know what, never mind. I'm done.

Posted at

If FF decide to make one last expansion, i'd love to be able to play as chaos. It'll be awesome if the roles were reversed like in black crusade :D

Posted at

Beren Eoath said:

You all know that this discusion is pure speculation becouse nobody from FFG will anwser or take part in it?

My point exactly and partly why I'm beating this deceased equine. If they gave a ****, they'd say something. The more people I talk to about their experience at the FFG events at GENCON the more pissed I get. WFRP is a red-headed stepchild that they don't really want or care about or they would be here. They'd say "hey, we support you guys. any pressing questions?"

When I got the report of a fan quizzing the president of the company, and claims that "we're more of a boardgame company and not an rpg company" and "we're a small company, we don't really participate in our forums", that's what struck my nerve the other day.

jh

sandbox..heh… hundreds of scenarios heh. a jedi craves not these things…

Posted at

Himmelweiss said:

I like the cards and bits of the 3rd edition. It's the main reason why i moved from D&D 3.5 or DSA "Das Schwarze Auge" (huge german roleplay game) to WFRP 3rd Edition.

No more you have all these books on the table, only to look up this or that in every session, it was annoying like hell. Now everything is just on cards.
I need less table space than i do with DSA or D&D. Also, looking up rules and what not in all these books (it's really terrible in DSA) eats up an immpressive amount of time, it's just annoying. Also the huge amount of sheets in games like DSA pissed me off in the long run.

Warhammer Lite is indeed a waste of time, i said that already when all of a suddon bunch of people complained about cards & bits and that there is no way to play it without the materials. Now there is a Lite version and the same people still complain.
Indeed, it was a god **** waste of time.

Himmelweiss said:

I like the cards and bits of the 3rd edition. It's the main reason why i moved from D&D 3.5 or DSA "Das Schwarze Auge" (huge german roleplay game) to WFRP 3rd Edition.

No more you have all these books on the table, only to look up this or that in every session, it was annoying like hell. Now everything is just on cards.
I need less table space than i do with DSA or D&D. Also, looking up rules and what not in all these books (it's really terrible in DSA) eats up an immpressive amount of time, it's just annoying. Also the huge amount of sheets in games like DSA pissed me off in the long run.

I second this.

I disliked writing down the rules, looking them up, hope that everyone has the same interpretation as me. In fact the Star Wars D20 is when I decided to start making cards for all things: Feats, Actions, Force Powers, etc.

I love the cards. I have never understood why people would dislike them. The rules are right there. You can stack the cards so they take minimal space. All the rules are on a 3"X 2" card for that action, talent, disease, wound, mutation, etc.

Earlier Sparrow mentioned that we did not need more cards. If we do not need any more cards ( Actions, talent, etc) than yes we are done with this line. But how can you argue for more supplements. Half of what a supplement is for is giving you more talents, actions, items, etc.

In truth I think there needs to be more actions all together but especially melee.

Posted at

master yoda said:


Earlier Sparrow mentioned that we did not need more cards. If we do not need any more cards ( Actions, talent, etc) than yes we are done with this line. But how can you argue for more supplements. Half of what a supplement is for is giving you more talents, actions, items, etc.

In truth I think there needs to be more actions all together but especially melee.

Are you really, really asking how can people argue for more supplements if we don't need any more cards?

A roleplaying game is more than just rules and cards and fancy actions, you know. It's about the setting, the characters in it, the places they go to, the events they become involved in, the politics, the evil schemes, the religious schisms, the reasons people kill, the reasons they go to war, the reasons they struggle, and the reasons they do good and fall in love… and the consequences of the same. It's about the history that created the world the characters exist in, it's about why the monsters chose this village to attack and not the other, and it's about who discovered the path through the mountains and why that means no one uses that path anymore. It's why Maron won't go down the river to fetch water anymore and it's about who is most likely to stand up and be counted when the PCs really need an ally… and it's about who will hates them enough to slip Spineberry juice into their ale.

It's about the shocking reasons why Darra Mosston the Dwarf became a Troll Slayer, not about the boring and ultimately meaningless card that roughly translates as 'I try to hit it'.

Cheers

Sparrow

Posted at

Resenting FFGs approach to community engagement compared to other RPG companies is futile. Save your energy, it's a policy that won't change. Community engagement is an art in itself that isn't taken lightly by those who excel at it. Just as Fred Hicks.
A policy of not entering in discussions on the forums is all well and good. I understand the reasoning.
Slowing down of products due to the modest players base is understandable too.
Not supporting a low priority product line with convention sessions and promotion is understandable too, when you have a stable of higher demand lines.
Im sure FFg would rather we focused on supporting ourselves with fan created offerings, a positive supportive vibe here on the community forum and even managed upwards by updating the component and live indexes ourselves. But self-sufficiency is something that needs to be fostered in some manner. It at the very least needs fans to feel confident in the products future.
Sooo, when you limit your fan contact to ONLY media releases and diaries to the news page, one would hope someone submits an update semi-regularly, lest your self sufficient and creative community lose confidence, become alarmed, generally go to seed.
An update every month or two is all it takes.

Posted at

FFG deserves some leeway for not participating actively on their forums. If they responded to topics on this sub-forum, they'd be obligated to follow suit for all their games…and they support a lot of games.

As for new product announcements, they probably have a massive development / production / printing queue with all the new Star Wars material in the pipeline, which makes release predictions unreliable. As mentioned already, there could also be edition and IP licencing uncertainty (e.g. How many more widgets can v3 tolerate before collapsing into a black hole? is it worth releasing a 3.5 edition if the licence isn't renewed? How much IP support is FFG currently receiving from GW for fantasy, compared to 40K? Did someone take over Jay's position as WFRP line developer, or will he return after Star Wars is launched?)

The FFG presenters at GenCon seemed genuinely enthusiastic about both WFRP and 40K. It's probably just a case of not enough bodies to cover everything at once, and insufficient product scheduled to justify employing a full-time WFRP line developer (I'm assuming Daniel is not the new Jay). FFG full-timers seem to work in development teams that migrate between product lines; only freelancers are dedicated to specific titles (and freelancers can't really work on GW IP without official blueshirt management - too many potential liabilities).

I'm quite sure there will be more v3 products coming, otherwise Daniel wouldn't have hinted so at the seminar (although IIRC, he showed the PoD expansion slide while talking about "future plans", so not sure if that means anything ; -)). Anyway, enjoy your games and don't worry people. Just follow James Sparrow's advice: stay active and constructive - show "The Man" that WFRP fans are a special clan of gamers worth making an extra effort to appease. :-)

Posted at

Sparrow,

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Supplements have a lot of engaging history of the world we love. But the other stuff in a supplement is careers, Items, Action Cards, etc. We are talking about Warhammer Fantasy here. There is already(25+ years) of history and fluff. So I'm not too worried about the fluff. I will enjoy and add the new stuff to the canon when it comes out. I do like the fresh feel 3rd edition has giving things.

And yes you are correct about cards, they tell you that you hit, but they are also feats.

But to each their own. You don't like the cards. I will never understand why. Anwser me this: What's the difference between a force power from Star Wars and an action card? What about feats in DnD and action cards? There is none. A feat could give you +3 damage to an attack. An action card does the same thing; on 2 success you get +3 damage.

Posted at

It is normal that not everybody likes every single piece of the game, but I definitely don't like the cards master yoda. As you said, they can be like feats (I don't know D&D) but the mechanics of tcards are a bit artificial to me. What does the concept of recharge time mean? Why a player cannot just use double strike every single turn if he is wielding two weapons or rapid fire or immobilising shot? Why to do so he has to buy 3 or 4 cards to have a rotation so he can attack with two weapons every turn? (This concept of rotation is so…I really don't like it, it remembers me of World of Warcraft). Or why you cannot parry every assault? Or what is the reason of having 78 different melee action cards?

Definitely in my opinion cards is a good concept for a rpg, my players love them, but this guys of the 3rd ed went overtop with it.

Posted at

The cards are fine, though there are a lot of them, and I think some of them should have been career specific, which is a houserule my group has brought in. It would be nice if you could download cards that you have lost, even at a small cost. Somebody walked off with nearly all my career cards and although I have been able to replace most, I do not want to have to buy all the supplements again to replace the rest.

What actually makes Warhammer in the end is the setting and the mythos, which sourcebooks, scenarios and adventures create. This is something that I dion't think FFG get. Black Fire Pass for instance was partly written by a friend I game with. However why did FFG set much of the material in Black Fire Pass, when they have an entirely new Karak, only slimly described in the book where all there dwarves came, from until Heroes Call came out. Why not describe Karak Azgaraz better, put some meat on the bare bones and detail The Grey Lady pass as well. That would tie in with most of the rest of the material which is centred around Ubersreik. Likewise Lure of Power had a great source for power politics in Ubersreik in it. Why not expand on that and create some great adventures set around that expanding on Edge Of Night.

Now it may be that FFG are severely limited on what they can desribe by GW. I don't know, but even so I do not think that anybody at FFG really understands the WFRP mythos. I hope that Herr Arnulffe is right and things do pick up, but if Star Wars is a success that probably means that we are not going to get anything substantial, apart from the the odd POD and the Enemy Withhin, until after 2015 if their development teams are that small.

Posted at

master yoda said:

Sparrow,

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Supplements have a lot of engaging history of the world we love. But the other stuff in a supplement is careers, Items, Action Cards, etc. We are talking about Warhammer Fantasy here. There is already(25+ years) of history and fluff. So I'm not too worried about the fluff. I will enjoy and add the new stuff to the canon when it comes out. I do like the fresh feel 3rd edition has giving things.

And yes you are correct about cards, they tell you that you hit, but they are also feats.

But to each their own. You don't like the cards. I will never understand why. Anwser me this: What's the difference between a force power from Star Wars and an action card? What about feats in DnD and action cards? There is none. A feat could give you +3 damage to an attack. An action card does the same thing; on 2 success you get +3 damage.

master yoda said:

Sparrow,

I'm not disagreeing with you at all. Supplements have a lot of engaging history of the world we love. But the other stuff in a supplement is careers, Items, Action Cards, etc. We are talking about Warhammer Fantasy here. There is already(25+ years) of history and fluff. So I'm not too worried about the fluff. I will enjoy and add the new stuff to the canon when it comes out. I do like the fresh feel 3rd edition has giving things.

And yes you are correct about cards, they tell you that you hit, but they are also feats.

But to each their own. You don't like the cards. I will never understand why. Anwser me this: What's the difference between a force power from Star Wars and an action card? What about feats in DnD and action cards? There is none. A feat could give you +3 damage to an attack. An action card does the same thing; on 2 success you get +3 damage.

I'll answer your question with another question, who said I thought D&D was a better game? It has it's own problems, but like WFRP3 a lot of them are the result of an ever increasing number of new abilities and modifiers. Comparisons with D&D don't really support your argument very well.

The sheer quanity of cards is an issue. You can have only so many variations of hitting someone before it simply gets ridiculous or more impractical to work with. I just had a quick count-up, and there are 72 melee action cards! Why on earth do we need more?

Cards, feats, special abilities, whatever they are, enourage people to think of character creation and character development in terms of 'what can my character do?' rather than 'what is my character like as a person, why is she like that, and what are her ambitions?' It's the latter the drives games and makes them interesting. Sure, kneeing that villain in the groin just at the right moment is a cheap and memorable thrill, but a game that's just a series of variations on kneeing someone in the groin gets tedious; there has to be more than that going on.

Climbing up walls and shooting webs out of your wrists is pretty **** cool, but what makes Spider-Man interesting, what drives the plots and stories that keep people engaged with the character, is his relationships with Aunt May and Mary Jane and J. Jonah Jameson, the circumstances of his uncle's death, and good old fashioned teenage hormones. The same goes for his enemies: their powers are fun, but the powers are all variations on 'I hit Spider-Man'. It's their origins, personalities and motivations that keep the stories flowing.

Cheers

Sparrow