Dark Heresy doesn't have to be revamped to fit into Rogue Trader, Dark Heresy characters can be used in Rogue Trader and vice versa. The main difference is the handling of money. The same with Deathwatch where the main difference is the handling of mass caualties caused by Space marine weapons and armour. If your Dark Heresy characters ever get hold of Storm Bolters and Terminator Armour, the GM will need top be using the rules from Death Watch to deal with the slaughter that will follow.

As to your other point, it could be that FFG are not planning to renew the license in two years or that they may renew the license but only do the 40K rpgs. If they are going to renew the license in two years time and the format of the Star Wars RPG is a success, then I am sure they will redo WFRP along the same lines. The Enemy Within could either be used to sign off V3 or it could be used as an immediate adventure campaign for the new edition. If the format of the Star Wars rpg is not a success then V3 may limp on but I suspect not. Much of it is great but all the extra paraphenalia is not really needed and puts a lot of people off, either through fiddliness or cost. The talent system particularly could do with with a major revamp.

ragnar63 said:

Hmm, this is a pretty good guess IMHO. It may be possible that FF are being SO tight lipped about WFRP simply because they're rethinking the games format. However, I do believe that they are smart enough to not alienate most of their consumers of Warhammer Fantasy material to change the game whole-cloth (i.e. reverting the the 40k percentile system, or copying the newer Star Wars system), and I would hope that any changes made would be easily compatible with the current 3rd edition, or at least VERY easily converted (ala Descent 1st/2nd Editions), allowing those that wish to continue to use the components to do so, and those that wish to avoid them to also have their way. This is why I would hope that IF (big if) they do decide to change the games formatting, that they keep the rules the same (not many people have a problem with the core rules as they stand…as they're easily house ruled if that's your thang) for the most part, but make the superfluous components truly optional.

I personally love being able to hand my players a card that describes their insanity/condition/critical wound, but think that the action system could use some simplification. The talent system could use an overhaul, and the various tokens could easily be completely done away with (and has by many a table)…though I do love me some corruption tokens…heheheh (maniacal laugh).

I totaly agre with Ragnag63 and Goblynking. It all looks like the end of 3ed and comming of 3.5ed or 4 ed. That's just pure speculation but that's how I feel about it. Just like I said some posts sooner it all reminds me of the situation with 2nd ed when FFG made the Shadows Of the Empire and Career Compendium for WFRP 2e. Then all fans also asked about the future and will they continiue the line - FFG said yes but didn't say that this will be 3ed and not 2ed. Now the situation looks the same from my perspective.

I can suspect that they will do a 3.5 ed or 4th ed. And that this new/upgraded edition will look like the new Star Wars RPG. So it will use custom dice maybe the same as 3ed and will come in hardcover books with lots of pages without card and all junk. If someone of You saw The Edge Of Empire (Star Wars RPG) then it looks almost in the machanic like WFRP 3e but without all card, bits, tokens and other staff. They also could use The Enemy Within as a first campain for a new/updated system.

I don't know what FFG will do with WFRP but I just keep my fingers crossed that they will do something. If not continue the lnie of 3ed then make a new edition.

PS. I would like to see a new WFRP without all cards, tokens and so but with the same dice mechanics. I would not have to use my home rules then. Besides I really miss the good hardcover thick books with lots of pages. Most of the time when I play WFRP I use the Guides so a comletely new edition that would look like the Star Wars RPG would be great for me.

Well, regarding new editions every 3-4 years, I don't see the point as a player and GM. I see the point for the company in re-selling all rule books yet again, of course.

But as a player I don't need a new set of rules to attack orcs if I already have a set of working rules to attack them. What I need are source books and campaigns and that's it. The original TEW ran on wfrp version 1.0 and it was a smash hit success.

Noteworthy campaigns make editions memorable, not the rules.

Johannes_Tippmeister said:

Totally agree with you there, but V1 was subsidised by Warhammer Fantasy wargaming. FFG have got to make this work for them, and if the V3 rules aren't bringing in the dosh than they will have to produce a set that will. Only then will we get the campaigns that we all look for.

ragnar63 said:

And to be fair, they'd have right to do that as a publisher.

As for me, I'd probably tag along on the sideline. I wouldn't buy any rule books, but I'd pick out the source books and campaigns and convert them to 3ed. on-the-fly. Same as I happily use all materials published for 1st and 2nd ed., too. Editions were never in the foreground for me, it's all wfrp to me.

Obviously there are a lot of Prophet's of Doom here.

I hope that WFRP3e continues, at least I hope for an Elf supplement and a Brettonian one (I hope for much more though). Then the world (around the Empire) would be quite fleshed out, there would be plenty of careers and the only thing missing would be scenarios and adventures. And at least adventures are easy enough to convert and there are plenty of real good ones to 1ed, 2nd and other RPGs that can be used.

What FFG should do is to put out POD's every once and a while, as they did when they started to create POD-supplements. That would "show us" that stuff is going on with WFRP at least, it's the total silence that drive us insane (obviously). The smaller cards should also start showing up in the PODs, so they can expand on runes, inventions, talents, mutations etc. They should also experiment with Career POD's, possibly revolving around different themes. That would be a neat trick and would keep me happy for a long time.

But these are just my wishes and hopes.

macd21 said:

I agree. EVERY OTHER COMPANY IN THE INDUSTRY interacts on their forums and FFG's claim that they do not have the manpower or product crossover, or whatever is complete bunk. It's a b.s. cop-out. They simply don't give a crap about WFRP, don't know how to treat RPG games or players, and are giving us the "/insert standard line here/". It's b.s. and I'm not stupid enough for fall for it. They treat their customers ONLY like little cash machines to be patted on the head. How could I consider buying Star Wars when they claim such things as:

• we're a boardgame company not an rpg company
• we don't participate on our forums because we're afraid we might have to answer a question or two
• "oh, we're just a little game company" I'm sorry but that's just flat out caca. THEY ARE the 800 lb Gorilla company.

It's bad customer relations all around.

..

Perhaps, but perhaps not. I mean, maybe radio silence only burns the over functioning minority who check in/speculate/vent twice/thrice daily. maybe those numbers are acceptable.

In truth I imagine it's an all or nothing situation, a company that's productivity relies on the mental and physical wellbeing of a small group of creatives has to safeguard that asset. It cant afford staff burning out over products and the heat said products generate in fan discussion. When a line developer has totake a break for the reasons JL did, it's bound to effect the thinking of how they manage the line. Pulling back to just media releases when stuff is ready to drop is an easy and pagmatIc solution. Add to that, IMHO wfrp isn't a popular enough line to justify a lot of PR time, let alone developer time re-inventing the product.

Regardless of what one thinks of the result, Wfrp already got a fan requested make over wIth the hardbacks and vaults. It got a digital app, it receives POD support equal to the likes of the Cthulhu line. It has a MAJOR release in the pipeline. Wfrp was the first time FFG got to create a big RPG from the ground up. And that indulgence is written all over the design. We won't see quite the ideas explosion in a big rpg again. But at the end of the day, a line has got to bring in return to see long-term favouring in the manner wfrp3 fans have gotten used to…

I would be very, very, very suprised if FFG released a new edition of WFRP in any form. After two 'versions' and what is most probably not a very successful income stream, they're not going to pump even more money and resources into yet another revamp.

What is most likely is the release of TEW, a few POD card decks, and very little else until the licence finally runs out.

That said I of course hope they surprise us all and suddenly become dedicated to a whole bunch of new WFRP releases (an Elf box? I don't understand the need for that at all; too specialised) - but let's face it folks, it most probably ain't gonna happen. This is business after all, and if there isn't the demand, there won't be the supply. Sad but true.

Daedalum said:

I am sorry but it is not how Paizo, Mongoose, Wizards of the Coast, Catalyst Games etc function. Also the Vaults were last year, the PODs even if you like them seem to have dried up, and the big release seems to have disappeared. Fair enough Jay Littles situation is something that cannot be allowed for, but he seems to have been working on the Star Wars stuff since then rather than the WFRP which does need some direction at the rudder. The 40K rpgs have three different systems with more scenarios and campaigns, back up and rules than WFRP has had as a whole. OK the initial ideas behind WFRP were new and exciting but the ball has now been totally dropped and the talent shifted elsewhere.

I would like FFG to prove me and many others wrong, but unfortunately they do not seem to have any interest at all in the genre now. Also taking a pop at people who do care enough to actually get involved and write stuff is a bit low.

SAD!

Looking at the general unhappiness about the lack of information or apparent support for WFRP3, I would suggest folks cast their minds back a few years. When WFRP2 fans felt rather uprset that their game would not be supported anymore, they were pretty much told by many (not all) WFRP3 fans to stop making a fuss, nobody was coming round to take away their WFRP2 rules and supplements, they had plenty of material already, you're all grognards, and so on and so forth. And, rather amusingly, WFRP2 fans had previously treated WFRP1 fans in much the same fashion.

So, WFRP3 fans: you have a heap of rules and book supplements, fancy dice, and more pieces of card than any rational human should ever need in their entire lifetime. Forget about that official Elf supplement, and either write your own or download the one written by fans.

To hell with the industry; play your game.

Cheers

Sparrow

ragnar63 said:

I didn't mean to take a pop at anyone, Id include myself in the demographic of over functioning fan. Im all for overfunctioning.

Emirikol said:

This is exactly the sort of cross chatter that I think their policy is trying to prevent. It should be patently obvious that FFG is not just a board game company. But because one person who works there expressed an opinion to the contrary, people think it is indicative of the entire company's outlook.

Sorry dude. You don't see other game companies hiding behind excuses like that. It's just bad customer service all around.

If they gave a crap about wfrp, if they gave a caca about their fans, if they gave a solid-toot at all, they'd occasionally post something here other than how to pump more money out of us. I had to find out for myself if other companies sit and hide behind excuses and lame customer support.

We're not asking for more product. We're asking for a company that gives a kot about the product they put out by participating occasionally on their forums and showing some leadership here. As far as I'm concerned, I'm just a cash machine for them (to be honest). Here's the RPG net post I made today to ask what the industry standard is. FFG is not living up. They are hiding behind excuses. Facts are facts.

Paizo doesn't hide.

WotC doesn't hide

Pinnacle doesn't hide.

Steve Jackson doesn't hide.

Argent doesn't hide.

AEG doesn't hide.

White wolf doesn't hide.

Margeret Weiss's company doesn't hide.

Kenzerco doesn't hide.

Cubicle 7 doesn't hide and make excuses.

Above are examples of companies that give a crap about their fans and give a crap about their forums.

It's poor, lazy customer service and I'm calling them out at a crucial time. Again, I'm not expecting them to put out more product. I'm expecting them to formulate basic service to their fans and show some leadership on why we should continue to support them when it's clear that they haven't supported us for quite some time except for some coddling POD leftovers.

If we don't hear from them by the end of the month, I'm pulling the plug on my support of the scenario contest. If they're so smart, maybe it will just happen all by itself, like it hasn't for the last THREE YEARS. It's hard to be a fan to a company that is a wire cage. I'm downright frakkn' livid about this. It's bugged me for too long, and I'm fed up.

I'm just a frakkn number to them, and that's not what it means to be a fan.

jh

Why don't we all just protest then to stop supporting Fantasy Flight until they come around the forums and post something, you know if the game is selling poorly tell us that you are pulling the plug do not let it die slowly without saying a word.

Involve us that is how we will get excited again and get new players to buy in not by making us hate you.

I have to say that I'm a relatively new fan and I too agree that FFG is definitely dropping the ball on the forum support. I have always been drawn to the Paizo boards as well as the Pinnacle forums on a daily basis with random questions and I'm always happy to see them answered by actual Paizo and Pinnacle employees. Same goes for Triple Ace Games. WFRP3 is still a great game IMO even though I haven't really had a chance to run it and I own quite a few of the products. It saddens me that FFG would abandon it so quickly when there is still so much more content they could put out.

Emirikol said:

Ah the nerdrage! Lol.

Seriously people - we have a complete game. We don't actually need anything else. We already have far more than many games get, anything else at this point is a bonus.

Edit: And in other news, someone over on RPG.net who was at the con posted the following:

I just remembered some pretty worthwhile news from the seminar, although it is WFRP stuff rather than 40k. Since the seminar was technically on both, I'll post it here: They spent a while talking about the new Enemy Within campaign, including the following details:

--Focus is on copying the themes, not the plot of the old campaign. To paraphrase, the idea is that the worst enemies of the people of the Empire are themselves and each other.
--The secret identity of the Big Bad orchestrating things is multiple choice, and options will include at least some of the major allies the PCs might work with.
--There are several "backgrounds" included that are fairly open-ended (examples include "Exile" and one I can't recall the precise name of, but which was supposed to be generally aristocratically themed) which can allow characters with them to get bonus plot hooks. They're optional, but they sound cool and easy to use from what was explained.
--They gave an estimate that the campaign could last for thirty session (!) if started at 0 XP (which is what is recommended). Enough material is supposed to be included to finish Rank 3 from straight out of chargen.
--Despite the mention that they would not recycle the plot, there was a brief allusion to river travel and the burning of barges.
--A writer associated with the old campaign is on the team. I forget the name and the nature of the association, unfortunately.

Regarding the supposed winding down of WFRP/40k:

Definitely not the case. Someone asked a similar question at the seminar, and they were rather emphatic about their continued support of the all the game lines involved.

macd21 said:

Thanks for the repost! The info on backgrounds and plot hooks for the new EW looks very interesting. I love the plot character plots in the original EW campaign, but they are a bit hrd to use when the pregens are not used. Using "templates" coud be a great way of making it work.

Good to know that they are determined to continue supporting the 40k/WFRP lines, maybe thy will even continue the license then.

While I do agree that they could be using the forums a bit more to communicate (I mean, what's the point in having the forum unless you plan on communicating, fan discussions could take place at any number of other forums), I think we have to give them some leeway, given that they just published the new Star wars game. I think FFGs RPG work force is probably too small to be able to output big products for more than two lines. Obviously they have let WFRP take the back seat for a while, but lets hope that they pick it up again soon.

macd21 said:

Please leave the teenage text speak on your mobile where it belongs. Putting LOL after an insult only places you in the bracket of the moronic tennager. Anybody who uses the word nerd as an insult generally falls into the bracket of an overweight ex-jock whose brains have been scrambled by too many steroids and head hits by linemen. and I speak as a decidely not overweight middle aged ex-jock who has still got two brain cells to put together. Emirikol has put more into this line from the outside than I think many at FFG have, certainly in terms of support and promotion.

In terms of a complete game system, no we haven't, not unless you expect people to get their scenarios and campaigns from the 1st or 2nd edition. Compared with the scenario / campaign output for the 40K rpgs WFRP has been largely starved of good content. We have loads of cards, yes, and tokens but there are still glaring absences which people have been asking for from day one of its release.

ragnar63 said:

Sounds like a reasonable idea to me. If WFRP3 is as simple and modular as fans have always insisted, slotting in the appropriate careers, monsters and cards to scenarios should be no problem at all.

Or, people could just make up their own scenarios using the vast quantity of published material already available. Obviously, many people do run games from published scenarios, but equally there are many who just make it up themselves. Some spend a lot of time planning, others just begin with an idea and let games expand based on what players/PCs actually do, but their games are their own.

As a hobby, and especially as fans of a minority game, we really have to get beyond the idea that we need publishers to provide our ideas for us. Seeing the ideas that other people come up with is always fun, especially if you have good writers who have the time to come up with new and original ideas and develop them properly. Unfortunately, even if we're jumping the gun here and now, sooner or later we will be left on our own again. This is the history of WFRP.

So, we need to develop the game for ourselves. Or rather, we need to develop the setting for ourselves, and then apply our preferred ruleset to it. WFRP1; WFRP2;WFRP3: it doesn't matter. You can run easily WFRP with Savage Worlds, Call of Cthulhu, Storyteller or the Over the Edge system (now rebranded, almost conveniently, as WaRP). What excites me about the setting? What inspires me to keep thinking about it 26 years after I bought WFRP1? What has me looking at the forums everyday? Well, it's sure as hell not rules. No, it's the setting's sheer potential for people, places, and plots. And the beauty of the roleplaying hobby is that we can make this stuff up for ourselves.

Get over to Strike to Stun, and start talking about the setting and making stuff up. There are edtion-specific forums for all so you can make up post rule-based stuff if you want to. Ignore what you've heard about anti-WFRP3 bias, because they used to say the same thing about anti-WFRP2 bias. You may not like everything you read there and it's not always very busy, but you will see genuine enthusiasm, ideas, and support for the setting. And isn't that what everyone here seems to be asking for?

Cheers

Sparrow

Yes, this thread will play out again, probably next time without a campaign box on the horizon. And that's ok, you're right, what had always sustained wfrp's unsupported years is fan contributions. (I have a pet theory about wfrp dry spells in that many good RPG writers find an IP that's is essentially kept in stasis isn't appeally to write for. I mean you can't really progress the worlds timeline much)

Sure won't be no Hogshead to carry the Flame of this version. ;-) but it didn't have to be this way did it? Why dole out the equivilent of a designers diary to an exclusive seminar if FFG wasn't even sitting on a new product announcement for the line. Sure the line designers getting a chance to face to face with a room of fans is a good thing but really, the community shouldn't be made to hang on such tidbits by third party word of mouth. Better, just a regular web based media release and save the seminar for a Gencon when there actually is something to announce.

Then I wouldn't of had to spend the weekend hitting refresh and folks wouldn't be getting tense with each other, FFG, or the folks who actually took the time out from their lives to inform us.

Sparrows mention of strike-to-stun.net seconded. Is awesome sauce, even with the cheeky backhand in the v3 sub forum subtitle, bless em.

@James Sparrow:

You're right: I can develop my own adventures and stuff and pick NPCs, monsters, trade items, locations and stuff from v1 or v2 material or from anywhere else.

But then I still don't have the cards.

And of course, there is a lot of great stuff in Liber Fanatica, but I am not fond of printing and laminating the cards myself. I am not good at it, too.

So the reason why I want the line to be continued and I want new products is mostly the material. And there are still things I am missing. Most of all the leeches and worms of the Marienburg marshland. And although adventures of former editions are easily converted to 3rd ed, I still like to see adventures that are designed with the mechanics of 3rd ed. in mind (like the progress tracker).

We can discuss and speculate all we want about the future of wfrpg, but to me what really hurts is FFG attitude towards the fans and buyers of their product. Sorry but Emirikol is totally right! Let me just mention that Black Industries during the second edition used to run a scenario contests where fans could participate, they used to hang apochryfa material for free in their web page, and even fan material that they had read themselves and find it worth!

I don't think I care so much about the release or lake of released material but they are alienated from the community and this is bad, really bad.

yeah that's what i was feeling for a long time now, too.

to me it almost seems like there is nobody reading any posts on these forums and thus not responding with demanded materials. for example it would not be a big deal to release a FFG produced map of the empire as a pdf for free download. in fact, all these little handouts could easily be posted online for anyone to get a hand on them, but it almost seems as nobody ever cared about that, as long as the product is selling decently

but soon it might be that it will stop selling due to a distinct lack of fan-based and demanded material i think