Yeah so.

Basically I've done a few sessions now. No way am I as experienced as you guys.

But my Acolytes, group of 4, minced, at their lvl of 4, 8 guys in light carapace with autoguns in a room only 20 metres square containing no cover. (okay some wounds taken, but goddamn i had to fluff one roll, and these guys took them all to town…)

THE AMBUSH DIDN'T WORK.

Should I be using glass-cannon bads? should i be swapping out guns for ninjas? Should I be playing smarter? Should I be making HARDER bads?

Or, sometimes, have the players just built their guys right?

I will be replacing lasrifles for autoguns and autopistols. leaders will be taking man-stoppers. One guy in every ten will have a heavy stubber. stuff like that. No more light Carapace…

Oh and Ninjas. add 40k ninjas. ppl love ninjas.

What's your thoughts?

Hiya. IMO you should never say your players have 'built their characters right' because if it comes down to it you can always build your badguys exactly the same way. In terms of weaponry I agree that you should always ensure that your badguys CAN actually hurt the PCs - but equally you may have quite a disparity between the protection your PCs have, so be careful sticking a heavy stubber in if you have an adept with flak armour and an arbitrator in carapace (as I did for a while).

There are loads of tactics that groups can use. Are your PCs better at melee or range? Do they make use of cover? In your example I would say that in a blank room it comes purely down to stats and your PCs probably have better stats and also have rechecks, so they will win. Use flashbangs on them, have them attacked from two different directions. Have a sniper using a silencer hiding somewhere. The more creative you are the more your players will enjoy overcoming the situation and the more dangerous it is likely to be.

One thing I wouldn't reccomend you do all the time is design a set of counter characters. This should be reserved for times when the plot calls for a specific attack that is supposed to be very dangerous (and you must reserve it for a time when it makes sense!). Make characters using the rules with the same amount of XP as the players then add one more. If you balance it right the fight will be hard, but not impossible. The extra guy is to balance the rechecks.

Finally it is worth saying that sometimes your players will get lucky! It doesn't matter how badass a set of badguys you put up sometimes the assassin will roll 7 degrees of success with a sniper rifle and then the damage dice will explode three times. Equally sometimes your PCs will roll utter rubbish and mook #3 will chop an arm off.

BrotherKane,

Thank you, yeah i think I took my mooks the wrong way, more armour instead of better guns (which means that the acolytes get better armour.) I'm learning one silly error at a time.

I think Ninjas would scare the cak out of them. Scum/mercs with mono-swords and a better WS and Dodge.

Also Flashbangs. They sound like it would confuse my players somewhat. Ninjas and flashbangs sound… horrible together. Lets do it.

Naaa I'm not saying I have 'standard' bad guys, just getting opponents (and Numbers! That's always hard to get right…) in the right quantity and quality seems to be my first hurdle. I have and assassin with a high BS, an attack dog, an armageddon-pattern Autogun, mighty shot and it's filled with man-stoppers… BRAAAAAT everything dead. No more Bads…

Let´s get into the details, shall we?

WHAT is you group made of? What skills, weapons, armours? What is the pesky Psyker (you DO have one!) doing?

Other ways to boost a mook (instead of giving equipment the PC -will- loot later):

1) Doing drugs
40k offers some ABSURD combat drugs. Make us of it

2)Outnumber them in melee
3:1 means +20 for each of the three.

3)Hire some talent!
The right talents can be as effective then a meaner weapon. Their are re-roll talents for Melee, their are extra +2 damage talents for both types of combat. Have a look at all the talents and take some if it can be justified. Not ALL of them need to have them…just one or two of the mooks…one or two of those who where not killed in the PC´s first volley….

4)Grenades, Grenades, Grenades (Okay, this IS equipment..but not a lootable one afterwards!)
Only bring this in if the mooks where out to assault somebody or something. People do not carry life grenade around on a daily basis. But even a Flame Bomb (Molotov Cocktail) will give the PC a lot of problem: Armour is not effective here AND the PC will need to spend part of their action to get out of the fire they are now standing in. Frag Grenades are nasty.

5)Think about a servo skull
They are hard to hit (-20) and armed with a pistol weapon themselves. Since they are a proven method of protection if 40K your big bad guy could have one or two next to him without any cries of "foul play" by your PC…if you do not overdue this!!

6)Men´s best friend
While an attack dog will not really HARM an armoured acoltyh it will go at it fearlessly and try to tear it down. The PC will need to redirect some actions against the pitbulls tearing at his leg (I usually rule this as a half action lost if the PC is not winning an contested strength test)…actions the PC cannot throw at their target at this moment.

7) Worsen the fighting conditions while outnumbering the PC
A thick fog or a ruputured gas pipe(!) does wonder to allow your beastmen to close in. Ever fought in the middle of a hive quake? What if a Heretek-Priest was hit and now his SCREAMER-Module goes berzerk non-stop? If it is something people need to role to resist, those who are present in greater numbers have fatter chances of having a little luck.

I have (dun dun duuuuun…)

Untouchable Adept with Chainsword/combat shield, Assassin with Attack dog, armageddon, mighty shot and man-stoppers, Noble cleric with HUGE handcannon (carnadon) and mono-sword, and Scum with Vanaheim super-shotgun (i think I got that spelt right…)

1) love it.

2) Glad I was thinking right! 12 opponents it is.

3) Talents? I should go through that section again and have leader-mooks. I usually end up with a fight on the fly though, is my only problem. They like fights.

4) FIRE BOMBS silly me. Awesome Idea. Ap6 is a bit much though when a flamer is only Ap3? I know that's been discussed in the forums a LOT.

5)…Servo skull, eh? Humm.

6) Dogs vs. Dogs… like it.

7) Smoke! great idea. Broken pipes and stuff.

Thaks Gregorius!

Other things you can do to throw a wrench in the players perfectly co-ordinated fighting team:

1) Environmental effects - Things from as simple as heavy rain and fog through to howling gales, lightning storms, earth/hive/sky/warp( )quakes, industrial spills, flooding, flash freezing cold, burning heat etc. If your mooks are well prepared then they can evade the effects so that they have an edge on the PCs. For example on a hive planet with caustic rain, have your mooks equipped with sealed, rubberized armour and rebreather masks built into helmets. This doesn't give them crazy amounts of armour (it can be done to heavy leathers or flak armour) but it means they aren't taking penalties from the caustic rain. Once the PCs have fought through a few groups like that then the novelty will have worn off and they should have upgraded their own gear through looting or purchasing the correct gear.

2) Expect the unexpected (or in the GMs case prepare the unprepared) - basically this means that PCs will always try and cater to the situations being thrown at them, so throwing something completely different at them will really shaft them. For example if they have been fighting their way through a set of hive sewers while they chase a powerful rogue psyker, fighting mutants and gribbly beasts along the way, what about throwing a well equipped hive gang their way? If theyve been dealing with largely melee combat, then to suddenly have bullets, las bolts and grenades flying their way will really shake things up. What this also means is that you should always prepare 1 or 2 'aces' to keep up your sleeve in case the story progression becomes stuck or the opposite and flies by too fast. Things like hive gangs, arbites squads, debauched nobles and their guards, nit-picking munitorum clerks, hell even rival Inquisitors to the groups own.

3)This is not D&D, do not make +1s into +2s to challenge - basically if the enemies aren't doing much damage with their d10+1 weapons, upping them to d10+2 weapons isn't the way to go by default, and will just be giving better gear over to the players if they defeat the enemies. Creative ways of having one or two superior bits of kit on the enemies (the odd sniper weapon up on a ledge the players can't get to, a heavy weapon that is bolted to a balcony and can't be removed) are okay, but if you have a unit of boltgun equipped mooks that thep layers take down, then all your players now have boltguns. Consider instead using things like grenades as they are 1 use only, animals (such as guard dogs, attack hawks and the like), good planning and knowledge of the area (locally hired thugs will run circles around the visiting acolytes), or just use frustrating deus ex machina - cloaking devices, force fields or teleportariums can seriously piss off your players and keep them on their toes without any risk of them obtaining game breaking devices (just say that the things get easily broken if enough firepower is thrown at the user to take them down.

4) Don't be afraid to bend your players over and shaft them - certain classes get access to, and anyone can buy or make with enough effort, things like charms or purely narrative things without game mechanics such as the mercenary licences for guardsmen or the skull charms of clerics. Never be afraid to have a damaging situation (be it wounds, equipment or funding) affect the group based on a dice roll, with modifiers for those with charms or other situation things or even ruling them out entirely. If the players fight their way through a crumbling hab block while chasing after a thief of Inquisitorial records, let those without charms roll a die and have anyone getting 9s (the number of Tzeentch and so the best number!) have somethin bad happen.

1. Drugs/Mutants: Have Fun

2. Sheer Numbers of poorly (terms of cost/weight) armed foes

3. Elite Foes (Gene Locked, Spoor Targeter Spectres/Hellguns with booby trapped carapace (gene locked as well?)

Just some ideas

Jeans_Stealer said:

So, what is their armour like? And how does it come that an ADEPT is equipped like…like…. well, like a very militant angry little bookworm?

To get a little bit more into the details…
What are your pesky little players up to next? What are you playing now? What is the major enemy, what are the general type of goons at his or he disposal and in what environment (Imperial City; Low Hive; Death World, a blasted Administratum Archiv-City) is your game currently located? Perhaps we can tailor a combat event ….

Brute strength and unnatural toughness work wonders with a club. or an oversized club. "An ogryn charges you with a plassteel beam" Now what happens when you jack it full of chems? Now what happens if it has support from some 4-6 stub auto pistol wielding gangers? Are the PC's going to dodge the attacks from the pistols and get smacked by the charging ogryn? or will they get out of the way of the falling metal tree and risk getting shot by several bullets? Use cover to YOUR advantage as well. nothing says "you deal no damage" quite like a big metal crate.

also keep in mind for when you are shooting: if you're primarily in close quarters combat, 10-30M sized engagement areas, you'll get a nice +10 bonus on BS just for being out of reach but not too far away. Most likely this range will be 3-15M for most pistol weapons. Also I CAN NOT overstate the deadly power of shotguns. Specifically one of my favorites, the hack shotgun.

interesting hack shotgun combination. Hack shotgun + moderately skilled Bounty hunter (BS 40-45) + normal shotgun shells + the acrobatics skill. Whats that? your big bad PC's are harassing your enemy in melee? Test agility to disengage as a half action out to 3M then use the remaining half action to fire point blank. Lets do some math. 45BS + 30 from Point Blank range: 75BS. Since it's the hack shotgun if one shell hits, they both hit (since it's rigged to fire both barrels). So thats 2x 1d10+4 tearing shells AND it generates another hit with each 2 DoS. Lets say you got lucky and rolled 01. Thats 4total hits, and i'd hate to be on the receiving end of that blast. I might be looking at the math a bit wrong but thats how i've played it. And if you want to be extra mean have the first shot be loaded with inferno shells

Gregorius21778 said:

Gregorius - They're all wearing light carapace (except the dog, who's in flak, and who has taken BY FAR the most dmg in every campaign as NPCs are SCARED of this mauling, grappling accessory) and several of them have ap3 helmets on, so at least ap3-ap5 everywhere.

(I plan, for maggots in the meat, to ask them to be more 'inconspicuous' and remove their armour, and swap for mesh/flak cloaks/jackets. also, perhaps no helmets, there's no guardsmen here.)

My Militant Bookworm! Yeah, he's got total recall, loves data, makes psykers (Gateway 17) bleed out of their eyeballs by grabbing them and shaking them like errant children, and was raised in the Schola Progenium. It was gonna be shock mauls or chainswords, and he wanted the SLICING POWER.

Gregorius21778 said:

So, their mission: The noble Cleric, desiring an Angelus Carbine, has to earn it. It's all about Gunmetal city's fanes of production - He’s been 'asked' to frame Takara for destroying a Westingkrup stockpile, when really it's Fykos that want the stockpile messed up. The stockpile was to be used by westingkrup to take over Doru's production.

The Major bads atm is an attached gang in Westingkrup territory. However, The Noble got the assassin (& others) involved, they walked into Westingkrup territory, went into a gang bar, and the assassin put his hand on his gun and yelled 'I wanna see the big man'. I sorta /facepalmed, but I wrestled control and there was a quickdraw duel (I made the rules up on the fly, it was okay. Could be better.) They were then taken to an interrogation location to talk, and they rushed it, and the deceive test failed, and suddenly there's 8 light carapace bads attacking… and all dead in 3 rounds.

Now their running through alleys in Gunmetal city and a hauler-8 has appeared and blocked their path at the alley-mouth.

The guy playing the noble is telling me, out of game, "abort, get away, grab the inquisitor, tell him about the bads, get him to go smack the crap out of them, lose the carbine, and gain a vendetta." He doesn't really HAVE a vendetta atm. tbh, The Inquisition would likely say 'The Gunmetal Fanes are messing with each other? oh. Carry on then.' Or they could be like "THAT'S TERRIBLE! Here, BOARD MY VALKYRIE, we're going HUNTING!" but really, he can have his Carbine if he completes the job. I might give it to him for free…

Thoughts:
Capture them. Using suppression, flashbangs, toxin bombs, and/or shock weapons (as "hundreds of guns" just means "Hundreds of guys to shoot first" to my Acolytes - they would never surrender.) Take them to the stockpile location for 'punishment' - then, just as their about to die, Takara genuinely attack (with Lasers and ninjas) and they have to RUN THEIR ASSES OFF. It turns out in the end that Takara were behind it the whole time; they just needed someone to find the stockpile for them (The noble cleric is covered in radioactive spray to make him stand out like a sore thumb on an Auspex.) Collects the weapon, Horray.

Let them play it out. See what happens. Get the inquisition involved, who either care or don't. I realise I have to get the talking Noble Cleric to get through a bunch of his deceive tests by IGNORING the silly things some players say to NPCs and letting the Deceive wave those errant words away (words like "we've come to help, we've heard you need it" - what a silly thing to say to a gang lieutenant who knows they REALLY don't need help.)

Clutch_Halthos,

The HACK shotgun acrobatic combo… yep. It's freakin' horrible, I have two of the PCs who plan to use it. But I could never get an enemy to do that - It'll kill any player character! I want to wound them, not smudge them, they like their PCs…Or is that the point? I should be using crazy things like that to keep them on their toes?

Cover and such… yeah I need to use this more. We do play on battlemat for anything major though, which goes down really well, I think my players really like the chance to get their wargaming knowledge to assist.

Hi Jeans_Stealer (by the way: any relation to Mr. Sneaky Pants?)

Do I get this right: one PC wants something, starts hiring himself out to a Fane in Gunmetal, takes the team with him, is now in over his head and plans to involve the =I= in hope of being bombed out of it?

IF I get it right I would not see why the =I= should think about involving himself

- his acolythes brought this mess upon them on their own
- fanes sabotaging each other CANNOT be that big a deal…it is an open secret (background wise) and I guess that as long as the Tithe as whole is not in danger the higher authorities do not seem to care for the fact that their is no legitimate TRADE WAR going on…IF their really is -no- Trade War going on. IF THEIR IS…well…. **** happens.

@100 guns
This is a little overkill, isn´t it? I mean, it is not like the PC where drawing that much attention. They messed with a GANG, they did not issue an official challenge for group shoot-out to the Fane directyl…did they?

This alley thing…they are not really trapped, are they? They could just climb the 8-wheeler unless somebody attacks them from this position…hm… I will try to come up with something during the weekend. If you have further detail on this, feel free to place it here or to send a PM

Gregorius21778 said:

No relation. Another user, I assume? Should have chosen that name first. Oh well.

Gregorius21778 said:

HEH that's the long and short of it, yes. He wanted a gun, he got everyone involved, they punched out the wrong dooman. and now… "Help me, Inquisitor!" I'm thinking… "no, it's not gonna mess with the tithe, is it? go check. if there is an impact on factories and the tithe changes, we'll impose a small sanction. Trade War = good business. oh also I have a mission for you at some point soon." The Noble Cleric wanted an Angelus Carbine… since this gun is SO VERY Illigal, I decided to make a small campaign of it.

They pretty much spat in the gang leader's face (the gang the Fane of Weskingkrup are TRUSTING to hold onto their **** until the time of reckoning for Doru) by killing his best dudes and exploding his leiutenant's head. in front of him on video-vox. "i yam in ur base" indeed. He's a little bit miffed.

The Alley… I'm almost tempted to just have some purely innocent bystander driver screeching to a halt in the wrong place at the wrong time to f*ck with their minds and morals. BLAM BLAM Innocent man dead! I didn't say the truck was full of bads, merely that a truck pulled up (and so one of them tossed a grenade…) so we have them confused for a moment, then I can see what they do.

I expect them to go to this warehouse, one way or another. I could have the alleyway as a point where they realise they're being followed by Takara agents with an auspex (to detect The Noble Cleric's radioactivity and track him) and camo-cloaks? or simply they get cornered by the Westingkrup-supported gang.

We can carry this on by PM if you'd like, but the discussion generation is always a bonus…

Hi Jeans_Stealer,

well, if you are not afraid to spill the beans about the whole thing in the topic I have no problem either. Some GM are a little paranoid about their players reading the wrong stuff, that is why I asked

@Grenade at an innocent
GO FOR IT! It is never wrong to sometime have something happen that has NOTHING TO DO with the plot. Once in a mission is good measure, it helps to keep the trigger-happy from getting to courageous.

So, assuming that they are getting out of this alley without any problems beside having tossed a grenade at a civilian…. what are their current leads, where will they be likely to go? I got it that at the end, it is this Warehouse with "the big storage" they are after […does your Fanes have "secret warehouses" or something like that? Or is it more like "we go for the vital parts of the production and we really need to know where these are"

Gunmetal City. Home of gunslingers and the aces of aces

Those who are worth their money should come with a BF of at least 40. Of course, their will be wanna-be´s and soon-to-be-corpses whom are blow this…but by now the PC should have drawn enough attention for the gang leaders to call in stone eyed killers (if he has access to any)

Gunmetal Gunslinger
Mighty Shot for the additional +2 damage
Lighting Reflexes make for good shooters, to! (double Agility Bonus)
Marksmen helps in fights over some more distance (no penalty for long range)
Quick Draw is a must have, of course
3 hits each (if Mook rules) otherwise about 14 wounds

Have on our more “Aces” with them. Aces have Agility & Toughness 40 as well
Hard Target (to get a -20 while running or charging)
Rapid Reaction (for avoiding being ambushed)
True Grit (go all the way with the criticals. Show them was a gun clanner is made of!)
Hip Shooting (shooting while moving)
18 wounds eachs

Gear:
I would go for Mesh Vest (AP:4) and mesh-woven leather (AP:2) for the limbs.

At least one clip of manstopper rounds for each weapon, arming them with good-quality hand weapons, hand cannons and Hecutor or Tranter here and their. Heaving STUMMERS to sneak on the PC could be useful, but does not has to.

The Ambush
The next time the PC draw attention to themselves, some snitches informs these guys. I would suggest seven of them. 4 “regulars” and three “Aces”. They will wait for the PC to come out, waiting for them to leave cover while hanging around and acting as unsuspicious as possible. Ask for Scrutiny tests to notice what is going on, otherwise a hard Awareness test could help against Surprise as these draw guns.

The trick: make sure that the range is 20 meters and up. They shoot from across the street and out of doorways or from behind parked utility cars. The Awareness test tells how many the PC have noticed. Otherwise they notice a number up to their Perception Bonus at the first turn after their surprise plus one more after each subsequent turn.

Dirty Little Tricks
One of the Aces has a “flash thrower” attached to the underside of his weapons. This works like the Flashbang power against ONE character looking straightly towards the power. No reuse.

After the PC have taken cover, one of the Aces switches to explosive rounds (selective ammo feeder for his gun!). He goes for a parked vehicle the PC took cover behind. There is a 20% chance for each attack that he trains towards the vehicle that the tank goes BOOM (use this like a frag grenade. Hollywood is exaggerating things a lot..). Otherwise, give the weapon +1 damage and TEARING quality.

After combat begins to die down, two or three motorcycles come in. They dash by and those sitting behind the driver spray the position of the PC with automatic fire. Role for subpression fire

Gregorius,

I like it. This is the kind of off-the-cuff skills I'm missing. this is what happens when I make a campaign up in 60 seconds (i thought the faction-vs-faction twists were pretty good though for 60 seconds…)

Gregorius21778 said:

@Quote : They know where the warehouse is now, that's the lead they have… the gang has 'challenged' them to come to their hideout since they trashed all the guys in their employ (and they're going to run to the inquisitor! this is delicious!)

The Fanes are constantly at each other's throats, and this time Westingkrup is using a gang to stockpile excess-to-tithe weapons, ammo, explosives and fuel so that they can get this gang (plus some of their agents) to attack a Doru stronghold/facility, and either take it over, or screw with Doru's rather stable PDF Tithe. Takara don't want this (Doru should be theirs) so they're trying to find the warehouse/stockpile, but it's deep in Westingkrup territory, location secret. Many Bothans died to bring Takara the information, that sort of thing.

Enter some acolytes, one who is after an Angelus Carbine, who must 'earn' the right to use it - during his 'job description' they coated him in radioactive mist-spray to keep an auspex track of him (they expect him to fail) and told him 'plant Takara evidence in the (destroyed-by-players) stockpile to start a turf war'. Oh, and they told this Acolyte that he's working for Fykos, just to make it slightly more confusing/cloak-and-dagger to the Acolytes. He got the others involved, and then all crappy hell broke loose.

@Gunmetal Gunslinger & Aces : I'm just going to write those down…

@Gear : That or a full flak coat (AP3 all over) agreed. I think I've been getting the armour right, at least. Handcannons, hecuters, manstoppers (for both aces and gunslingers? or just aces?) and tranters… as in the tranter .54 handcannon? the easily-jamming facesmashing bang-cannon? Ok.

Stummers too… hummm…

@Ambush: I tend to play in a cinematic style, so I reckon one of the Aces would probably ask for a light and pull a gun, with the rest hanging back. but I'm going to have to start making them take hard awareness tests for surprises, and I like the scrutiny test thing…

@Dirty tricks: Flashbangs? firebombs? exploding cars? Hell yes! I'll just have to see where the action takes place, if they run to a vox unit, call Ohmada Sand (the Interrogator) and find out that "you're to inspect this warehouse and analyse the potential tithe impact" or "Turf wars improve tithe outputs considerably, the inquisition will not play a part" then perhaps they'll be attacked while they go to a hotel and wait, or decide what to do in the street/at a bar. If they try to run, then they'll get attacked at the Train-station.

…Or, they could think 'F**k this to Sunday' and go straight to the warehouse after (accidentally or otherwise) Bumping off an innocent truck driver, drive his truck full of medical bandages and antiseptic through the front door, and going in blasting - fighting the gang, the gang-boss, and a Westingkrup agent (A Bounty Hunter who's in civilian power armour, with a mounted heavy stubber and electro-flail. They won't get the power armour at the end, as it's core will detonate.) If it starts going badly, Takara send in the laser ninjas…

@Weapons, Armour, Ammo of the goosn
The Tranter .54 is something I would give to the "regulars". It at least has some decent BANG. Manstoppers for everyone. We are talking serious business here. Stummers only if you want them to get sneaky and "Aces" only.

I opted againt the Flakk Coats because I assume that they actually stand out quit a bit and would thereby now longer justify the "they hide a crowd" approach I tried to take (the reason for the Scrutiny check). If this is not what is going to happen, ditch it and go for the better protection of the overcoats

@The Warehouse

Important stock is not just guarded by a gang. Even in a secret warehouse. Having somebody running around in POWERARMOUR would be one step to much, me thinks. This stuff is wargear and light armoured vehicles would be easier to get hand on.

Suggestions for guarding a warehouse:
Servoskulls, again. They make excellent guards: they are small, they can fly, you can fit them with nice optic to enhance the chance of spotting an enemy, they can hover below the ceiling of the warehouse, you can arm them with whatever.

Reinforced Structure
I think a warehouse for military grade weapon should have gates sturdy enough that a truck cannot simply smash through….or a street curve the keeps him from building up enough speed (momentum) to crash through.

Kybernetic hounds could walk aroundon the floor, attacking anyone not wearing a matching ward accessor (wave signal). This info could be gleaned with a Common Lore (Tech) test (ordinary? challenging) and would open up the possiblity to ****** a ward accessor from the body of a fallen foe (2 rounds of searching the body unless a touch based Perception test is passed. Then, it will be one round to finde the amulet that is the ward accessor.

Sonic immersion trap would be my persnal treat for anybody approaching the actual storage area of the goods in question (a lot more cargo containers might be present!). Take the same effect as the "Sonic Screech" or whatever this Tech-Priest talent is called. The hounds and skull would be immun, so. And the …erm.."human guards" might know and wear air protrection..or simply might stay away from the area!

Rapid Response Guard
Having guards that are NEXT TO THE TARGET and not "on site" have one advantage: they are not suprised by the attack but might surprise the intruders if the alarm is silent. They should be able to show up about three to five minutes after the alarm was sounded.

Bull-Pup Assault rifles, light carapace, flash or concouision grenades, …the whole SWAT-thing. Coming in from behind the PC. Yummy?

Gregorius21778 said:

OH that makes sense in terms of armour. SRUS BUZNSS? AWESUM I'm begiining to see that semi-glass cannons are possible (esp. wish a BS of 40 for bods… 14 wounds I like this already!)

HIDING IN CROWDS I never got this right. I may do yet. I'll give it a shot (obviously depending on what they do…)

Gregorius21778 said:

The Power armour was my Cinematic sense coming in to play, I just thought that Westingkrup would have sent a hunter/killer/leader/noble guard/etc to protect their interests with the gang… but your way is BETTER (Servoskulls… awesome. Hard to hit, fall like flies, raise the alarm and release cyberhounds AND calls in the Rapid Response Guard.) It's almost DESTINED that Takara would have to turn up! I'm not sure about the sonic immersion trap.

TBH though I had the concern that the moment they saw the promethium, they'd set it alight and leg it. It may have to be stored in heavily-armoured chambers, promoting further thinking… I know this is their first plan for blowing the whole place up, so the guard have to get their before this happens.

@Cybernetic hounds : Are you suggesting Cyber mastiffs (which are pretty fecking hard) or just cybernetically 'enhanced' dogs, fleshy and everything?

@Reinforced structure : Yes. This will make them take stock and think. But tbh A re-enforced warehouse would stick out in Gang-territory and Takara would have found it already, so I'm thinking… from outside, it looks normal, the INSIDE is re-enforced? Double-shuttered? or it's underground, beneath a normal-looking warehouse?

@Rapid Response Guard : I'm just wondering how they're going to fight the Gang boss: I assume he's leading the RR guard. Westingkrup gangs are violent and quick to anger, and he'll want a piece of these guys no doubt.

….wait…your WAREHOUSE is in a GANG TERRITORY? …I am sorry, but wheren´t the cargo haulers getting the wares inside a dead giveaway to begin with? I think it would unless you have a LOT of warehouse in said "gang territory" whom do see traffic on a regular bases. In which case reinforced guarded ware houses make a lot of sense (to disencourage stealing, gangs are gangs). This all goes by the asumptzion that we are talking about LOADS AND LOADS AND LOADS of wares… which I expect. A minor amount should not endager the tithe of any of the great, named fanes of Gunmetal City.

I read "promethium". Why is there Promethium inside this Warehouse? Is THIS the cargo? Anyway, in place like Gunmetalcity (everyone & son has a gun) it makes sense to storage promethium in VERY solid containers. You do not want a stray shot from a shoot-out to penetrate anything. Metal shutters in front of the windows would be my standard feature for Gunmetal City for just the same reason (well, at least with anybody who can afford them…they do not need to stop an aimed shot…just need to be slopped a little to get a stray round (boucning bullet) into a less harmful direction).

Gangs & Guards
First, I think the two will not mix well. Guards are more like "house troops" and will think ill of this "street scum thugs". But the gang boss will wanna have a piece of this, for sure. So, noboy is keeping him and his remaining lads from hanging around the warehouse area, just for the case that somebody or something shows up. I guess the guards will know which scum is in the employment of their fane (gang colours have their uses) and will not open up fire on them unless provoked, seing them as "un-invitied auxillary troops"

Kyber-Hounds
One ore "real" cybermastiff would be matching the importance of said cargo. Otherwise, take a downgraded version where just the limbs and huge parts of the jaw where exchanged.

Gregorius21778 said:

Gregorius21778 said:

…aaaaaaaaand I broke my Campaign. ****. It was only a matter of time before I realised how big a mistake I had made - You're right, the whole thing's a cock-up, no way 1 warehouse could screw with a Fane's tithe. 1 warehouse full of weapons could take over a single factory, but that's it. It could be used in a turf war, but that's it. Shitcakes, I have to carefully remember what I told the players…

…Yeah, the warehouse is in a gang territory. Yeah, it would be heavily armoured and protected. Takara could have spotted it from miles away using agents/servoskulls/spies. So why are the Acolytes involved? Why arn't Takara doing this on their own? It's like a cold-war era style backing of opposing countries by superpowers…

You read promethium correctly. There's no CARGO , it's a STOCKPILE OF WEAPONS AND FUEL AND AMMO for attacking… SOMETHING. Not Cargo. excess-to-tithe stockpiling, but not cargo. it would have been brought in on trucks, this is correct. The gang transporting and taking care of it is supported by the Westingkrup fane with money, weapons, and more money.

…SO, I'm slightly stumped. erm… the off-worlders (the PCs) have been lied to? tbh my players don't listen to me, they just kill stuff. I could just say anything, but I risk them figuring out that I've changed the story.

I need to sort out what they're doing it for/what they're doing before I do the next session.

@mystupidfeckingreasonsforthiscampaign: "The Fanes are constantly at each other's throats, and this time Westingkrup is using a gang to stockpile excess-to-tithe weapons, ammo, explosives and fuel so that they can get this gang (plus some of their agents) to attack a Doru stronghold/facility, and either take it over, or screw with Doru's rather stable PDF Tithe. Takara don't want this (Doru should be theirs) so they're trying to find the warehouse/stockpile, but it's deep in Westingkrup territory, location secret. Many Bothans died to bring Takara the information, that sort of thing.

Enter some acolytes, one who is after an Angelus Carbine, who must 'earn' the right to use it - during his 'job description' they coated him in radioactive mist-spray to keep an auspex track of him (they expect him to fail) and told him 'plant Takara evidence in the (destroyed-by-players) stockpile to start a turf war'. Oh, and they told this Acolyte that he's working for Fykos, just to make it slightly more confusing/cloak-and-dagger to the Acolytes. He got the others involved, and then all crappy hell broke loose."

So, to change the above paragraph, i must consider that the Tithe of any Fane is considered INDESTRUCTABLE when faced by 4 acolytes and cannot be affected. They know they're off to stop/damage/destroy a Westingkrup-supported stockpiling AND framing another Fane in the process, where the stockpiled-contents are destined for SOMETHING to do with Doru…

…How's this then:

@a better reason for this campaign: The Fanes are constantly at each other's throats and engaged in secret projects, and this time Westingkrup is using a gang to stockpile excess-to-tithe weapons, ammo, explosives and fuel so that they can increase the size of their territories etc. No other Fane wants this (since they're all secretly trying to do it) but Fykos has received secret information about one of Westingkrup's stockpile locations, and that it's destined for… something bad. They know it's deep in a territory controlled by a gang (who need a name, coincidentally - The Mutilators? Hammerjacks?)

Fykos plans to take advantage of the situation by framing Takara for an attack on Westingkrup's stockpile, causing a altercation between the fanes, where Westingkrup will happily go to war.

Therefore Westingkrup goes to war with Takara. Fykos comes out on top. Hilarity Ensues.

That seems simpler. Your thoughts?

@Gangs&Guards: I don't agree, Westingkrup employs more gangers than anyone else, if they trust this gang enough with one of their stockpiles, then the Gang must protect it… The elite bods would just be better-tooled-and-trained Westingkrup-supported gang killers.

@Kyber-Hounds: I agree with you and get your meaning now, just pick-a-dog-that-suits. So a basic model, really. sort of a servo-skull, rage-switch and guard-dog rolled into one… a distraction until the real protectors arrive. Is Kyber different from Cyber, btw? just an odd question, sorry, wasn't sure if it was a Typo or something.

The Second launch is just fine. As long you do not expect the ongoing action to have IMMEDIATE consequences for anyonce tithe, all is fine.
Buy the way…how many people are to be armed with this weapons stack? Are we talking "about 100 people" (which means not more than a truck load of weapons)? If it is more, where are all these people taken from? Of course, just ne truck driving anywhere late at night could have been overlooked. Especially if you do not carry it all in just one night but use 10 days and 10 different shappby utility cars (larger pick-ups) to bring in the guns.

Guards vs. Gang
As it fits your campaign. But if the gang is responsibel for the protection of the warehouse, on should think about THEIR layer of protection as well. After all, they won´t have been providing servoskulls and kyberhounds.


A gangers protection to a secret ware house
These guys are the current chain-dogs of Westing Krup. They will thereby have access to quiet some hardware. Armour, ammo, guns,…

Perhaps the building containing the warehouse (or more correctly: the stockpile!) is near the end of an backstreet. The entrance is not at the exact "head" of the end of said alley (a dead end). It is 90-arc next to it. In this scenario, you could place some gangers one or two stories above ground, hanging out, smoking lho, banging loose women…and having an eye on the street so they know when they have to bring up the heavy stubber from just under the window so they can spray the whole length of the backstreet with serious surpression fire. IF push comes to shove

If this "stock pile contianing building" (formerly known as "the warehouse") is deep within the territory nominally controlled by this gang (what is its name, by the way?) they will have snitches. Kids running to them if they see stuff, or people waiting till the "strangers" have left sight to pick up an old vox piece to give an alarm. This will allow you to come up with some of the following

Drive-by-shooting
Dashing by on motor cycles or an utility-car, with guns blazing. Perhpas even trying to run the pc. If you really want to remove all the safety switches, DO make use of a small armoured vehicle (like a humwee). it could be something old and decomissioned, something that was supposed to be dismantled but somehow left the reclamaitors yard with serials filled off and still armed & armoured.

Ambush, part two
If strangers (and the PC are no strangers to the boss anymore!) show up in an area not treated lightly by those having no business there it is a fair guess that they are coming for the stockpile. So, once warned by the snitches, hired guns or gangers can take up positions in the streets nearby the stockpile. As they see the PC coming, they first signal the other (who? what? how many? which direct?) and then will start to tail. A bigger group will try to confront the PC while the spotters (one or two, I do not know how moch of the gang is left) will attack from behind (if they did not got caught… use skill sets of a Skulker for them).

Fire from the roofs
Their is nothing wrong with having the PC ending up in the wrong alley, suddenly finding firebombs coming down left and right of them. Then, machine pistols open up with manstoppers..or even perhaps assault rifles (excess to tithe; right? Right…) Being ontop of a roof is a good postion for that kind of ****. And as they try to storm the building…let them storm. 5 or 6 or 8 levels of building, no elevator…just to face a guy with with an automatic weapon atop of the last set of stairs…waiting for them….

EDIT: But why-o-why promethium??
If this is meant to arm a gang for an attack on an enemy fanes assets…why do they need Promethium? Ammo? CHECK! Weapons? CHECK! Armour? CHECK? Explosive? Double CHECK!. Promethium?? Laying fire could harm the city district and could call the attention of the Authorities ("no matter how much you want or need tos squabble and square with each other…we will not allow you to produce a figher that is a threat to our district! and any fire in a hive that we cannot put out quickly is! and we CANNOT if their is a tiny war going on, firefighters dislike catching stray rounds")

I'll share some of my basic tricks for setting up a challenging combat:

Location is the first thing I consider. Here are a few challenging things I've set up and enjoyed greatly.

Ambush them while they are in a huge square. 400m to the closest cover. A handful of mooks with longlas/huntingrifles can hurt them badly while the heroes run for six rounds to get in range with their pistols. If they can even spot their attackers… For highlevel heroes: use vindicare assassin.

In a basement. Turn off the lights, fill the room with smoke and send in the sonar-mutants with swords.

Divide and conquer: Explosives under a bridge. Enemies on the other side with longrange weapons and a few with shields on their end of the bridge. As soon as the frontlne fighters are on the bridge, detonate explosives and see how they roll their swim-checks in all that armor. Also works with closing bulkheads in a spaceship.

Disguise: Have a group of assassins hunt them. A lightning attack mono-knife in the back while you are at the market will hurt like hell and can give some epic hunt-scenes. For higher level characters, use a Callidus assassin dressed as a cop requesting to talk to them one at a time inside the precinct office. Once she has offed a few of them and they see through her disguise and attack her, every cop in there will join the fight agains the acolytes… awesome fun ^^

While they sleep/shower: Just kick in the door. No armor on. Very light weapons available (soap-on-a-rope: 1d5-1 Impact damage, primitive).

Zero-G environment. Acrobatics test or float away if you move faster than slow move or fire any SP-weapon.

Vacuum: Wear that AP:1 voidsuit instead of armor. Any hit you take will cause a rip. While you leak air, roll WP in order to do anything other than try to fix the leak.

Numbers: Just make sure the weapons applied can damage the heroes with a reasonable chance, then take lots and lots of them. Remember to focus fire so you take down the heroes one at a time. If you want to be nasty, save the heavier weapons until later in the initiative step, when all the reactions have been spent. This also lets the players feel heroic.

Set timers for them. Lava filling the room. Or set fire to things. Like the house they are in. Board up the door. Shoot them as they jump out from the upper floor windows. Make sure th timers are fairly short, so they can feel the pressure.

Sleep deprivation/forced marsch: Take fatigue levels. Be less effective.

Assymetric warfare: against hugely unfair odds like inside an airbase. Grab the **** you need and run like hell before enough reinforcements show up. (one squad of PDF/gangers every second turn should be enough…)

At a fancy ball: Rapiers only, no other sidearms allowed. Will they risk the nobles dislike by smuggling in handguns under their skirts?

Some challenging loadouts/combos that I have used:
First line fighters with shields and defensive stance in a corridor. Second line fighters with whips and grenades.
Hallucinogen grenades (or similiar crowd control, like shock, stun etc)
A psyker with mind control effects that hides (maybe behind people with shields, maybe around the corner, maybe in one of the four hundred windows you can see along the street) and controls the characters into hurting eachother.
Civilian bystanders that the group require the goodwill of.
Combat drugs. Very destructive so not useful for heroes, but great fun for mooks.
Pinning fire.
Shotguns at point blank. Maneuver-action lets you move someone 1m, in order to shoot them with your shotgun rather than be stuck in melee with them.

Some other general tricks:
Have backup to be used if neccessary. Have five mooks in the ambush. If they don't hurt badly enough, have their backup of five or ten more come around the corner two rounds later. If the fight is already even, there was no backup.

Set a pressing time. Let them regain fatepoints as the take an extended rest, rather than between each evening of play.

Errata the rules for regaining wounds. They are plain silly and makes people live for ever with simple medicae-checks.

Read up on the rules for initiative, reactions, actions etc. They are really not balanced and can be (ab)used in effective ways.

Best of luck!

Gregorius,

@Warehouse vs. Cargo vs. Stockpile: Yeah okay sorry about that problem is I see cargo and stockpiling as different things, i was getting confused (and so ended up acting the ***** trying to make it less confusing. fail.) We'll call it "the Stuff". or anything we want.

@Second launch: I think that I'm going to have to make this stuff represent the size required for part of a gang turf war, and make this stuff one of many such collections - however this Stuff in a storage facility in this campaign is just the only stuff that the Fane of Fykos has 'managed' to locate, and so wishes to take advantage of their intelligence by using it to start a war between fanes (since westingkrup go to war over the slightest provocation…. and the fact that Fykos hate Takara.) It would have to be enough guns, ammo and fuel for a small army.

tbh it's starting to look like four NPCs are getting in over their head… I'll see what they do, otherwise this fight could be the death of them - it's only meant to be a little in-between campaign lol.

tbh there's still time to really shrink the scale of the campaign, and make this whole thing the equivalent of a cold-war-esque backstabbing - perhaps it's a Westingkrup noble's personal collection of Porn and Drugs? Perhaps it's the alcohol collection of a dignitary for a fane? this collection of weapons/ammo/fuel may simply be the requirements of one of the fane's elite units, or something equally small in comparison?

"blow up Westingkrup's favourite gang's stockpile" seems simple enough and small? that could start a turf war? In fact that could be it - go mess up the Westingkrup fane's favourite gang's stockpile of arms, fuel and weapons, in order to cause a turf war. the rest of what the acolytes were told was bullshite in order to make the questioning 'employee' have fewer questions as to 'why'. or something. basically to cover my arse.

@further suggestions: agreed, agreed, agreed. couldn't ask for more!

@Gang as Guards : This is where the ward accessors come in, the servo-skulls and Cyber(Kyber?)hounds stop the assigned gang members getting ripped apart by the defenses in the facility/warehouse. I like that idea. The rest of the gang, as you say, are off limits and defend outside, but the fane has some put some money into defenses and supplied the servo skulls or something.

@Gang name: dude I have no idea. Hammerjacks? Steel fingers? Trigger-guards? Bulletstormers? Hacklockers? prettyboys? Metaillican Dangermen? "the Krup's"? it ties them to the name "westingkrup" too. that's a bonus.

@Promethium: From reading some of the 40k novels, as far as I knew Promethium was Car/truck/vehicle fuel, not just flamer fuel? the small army/gang will need vehicle transport. I assume there's only going to be the equivalent amount of a petrol-station there. but tbh if it turns out that they're wrecking some dude's porn stash, then there won't be any. if it's the gang's stockpile though, they'll need fuel to get around their territory. I am in agreement though - stockpiling Flamer fuel and flammable substances is pretty **** DANGEROUS in a hive, and Arbites might even get involved, not just the local enforcers.

Mellon,

I see your stuff, it gives me ideas, and I appreciate them. But I'm not trying to KILL my Acolytes. not yet… but your ideas are certainly helpful!

@"The Stuff"
Well, sticking to this "weapons cache" thing might be best. An assortment of weapons and ammo Westing Krup had "secreted away" in order to arm up a couple of local gangs "in case of an emergency". Assault rifles, submachine guns, Armaplast Vests, concussion grenades, some stubber and stuff. Perhaps enough to arm up about 200 to 300 people. Onyl this one gang nows where the **** is and this makes them superior since the other are not to **** with their territory if they want a share of the stuff now and then. This means about a dozen of crates of weapons and about the same amount of crates of ammo. Perhpas 20 to 26 crates in total if you leave out the prometium .

@Promethium
Yup, Promethium is fuel as much as aloud of otherthings….but where are the squadrons of vehicles Westing Krupps intends to fuel? And how should a storage of said fuel be any good if you do not have a prober base with proper means of getting a decent number of vehicles fueld up AT ONCE? Sorry for drilling holes in your intents, but unless their isn´t something I quiet not got yet this might be a little flaw in your scenario . My suggestion, leave the fuel out. Fuel is vital for a real war since a real war needs a lot of mobility. Like in "hundreds and hundreds of kilometers, with military vehicles whom have (once in combat) afuel consumption beyound the wildest urges of a civilian SUV".

Kyber vs Cyber
I simply use the (german) term "Kyber" (which is the same as "cyber") since "Cyber" is ingrained with "stream-lined/high-tech" with me. "Kyber" (with the hard "K" instead of the soft "c") is something square and ugly and brutal in my mind. And this is 40 K , after all! So, it all boils down to my personal preferences here. No different stats, all the same.

Gang Name
Naming a gang in 40k is a difficult task, it seems. The modern concept of gang violence does not seem to fit in nicely with all this gothic chic and byzantine brass and pseudo-medivial style. I guess, that is why the term "Gun Clans" was founded. Anyway, they need names. You do not have any idea about what these guys do besides being the enemy, walking around armed and ending up shoot by your PC? Since they distribute the weapons (from time to time) I would go for " Stub Merchants", commonly called "Stubbers". Their original (and still occupied) tried could have been "Protection Money", extorting a fee from each and any kind of business in their turf "or else". This give a good excuse for hanging out all around in the streets (representing, having an eye o thing an gauging who might be holding back income) while explaining while the agents of Westing Krupp choose them (they already where king-pins, pushing around others).
Other options: "The Bang-Bang Brothers"; "Due Boys", "The 68 eyes" (refering to the 34 orignal members who had an eye on streets, demanding money for each and anybody doing business their) or something in reference to the location like "the Hershheim Keepers" if their turf is largely found in the Hersheim District"

@the stuff : tbh at first i saw it as a stockpile for more than several hundred, more like several thousand - an aircraft-like-hanger full of cases and crates. a space big enough far a large-scale battle…

but i see that that sort suits a main campaign, not a side campaign. a small safe-house-come-stockpile-store for several hundred gangers, say a converted hab-block, with a loaded garage.

@Kyber vs Cyber : AHhhhhhhh sh*t sorry get it now.

@Gang Name : The suggestions - i like them. "brassbloods"? they were chosen to guard the westingkrup cache because they were in control of the area (more like… tight grip.)

@this Promethium : Aren't vehicles common in hives? driving the Aortas in large numbers? gangs must have bikes and stuff. If I had 400 ppl i wanted to suddenly arm up and roll out, I'd nick all the 8-haulers I could find and roll out like the Autobots.

I just thought…10 barrels of fuel makes a good environmental key for the acolytes to plant a bomb and blow the cache sky-high. or a refulling station next to 3-4 parked trucks, or something. I'll read the info on metallican again and see what i can find - if vehicles are 'restricted' to companies and haulage and freight, but gangers get it together to move their mooks around the territory and drive the boss around then surely fuel can be bootlegged too?

the mere presence of tucks and vehicles in the campaign makes me think of the gang collecting fuel to keep their vehicles going so they can swiftly respond to defend their hood, as it were.

That isn't to say that i don't see what you're getting at - who's going to put out a fire in metallican hive, with it's lack of law? no one, and stuff is going to burn. and the inquisitor would be p-i-s-s-e-d…

my limit… some fuel. not loads. a sensible amount. and then loads of guns & ammo, in a converted, barricaded and secure hab-block surrounded by bads.