1) Easy question - when can I bring a card out of the shadows in the plot phase? Before the plots are chosen? After the "when revealed" actions are done?

2) This has happened in our last game:

Player A: Had Core Melisandra.

Player B: Had Beric Dondarion with 22 power on him.

Player B chose Valar Morghulis

Player A chose Many Powers Long Asleep.

What should happen? We played it like this:

First Valar took place, then Mellisandra was brought back, postponing Player B's win.

1) At the beginning of the Plot phase, before the plots are even chosen.

2) Player B wins, since Melisandre will be still moribund when the Many Powers Long Asleep "when revealed" effect triggers, so she can't be brought back by it. And even if, she woulld have to be in the dead pile in the first place, so player B would've already won (there being a time, at which Mel was dead and he had 22 power).

Why would Melisandra still be in the Moribund sate? The when Valar is resolved (no save used) and then the other plot is resolved. But I assume you are correct that there was a frame where Melisandra was in the dead pile, so Beric should have won the game.

Any vouches for this, however?

Because resolving all plots is done in just one Framework Action window (check the FAQ), and moribund lasts until the window is closed.

Anyways, you seem to be wanting Mel to be both moribund (still preventing Beric owner from winning) and actually in the dead pile (to pull her back using Many Powers). It si impossible to have both, even if I am wrong about the moribund. If she reaches the dead pile, Beric owner wins, since there is a point in time he has 22 power, and you don't have Mel in play, and bringing her back with Many Powers happens too late. If she doesn't reach the dead pile, Beric owner wins, because she dies after the plots are resolved.

Actually the FAQ says something about "resolve all at once".

Player A: Valar

Player B: At the gates

According to the FAQ - the maester can be brought into play -after- the Valar is resolved.

How does it fit in the 1 framework window?

mbm said:

It goes like this.

In the Framework Action Window (FAW) where plots are revealed, the following things happen:

- Plots are chosen and revealed

- INI is counted

- INI winner appoints First Player

- "When Revealed" passive effects are resolved (in the order determined by the FP)
Here Mel is killed by Valar. She remains on the table in a moribund state, though.

- Other passive effects are resolved

- Responses to anything happening before are triggered

- Moribund cards leave play
Here the moribund Mel hits the Dead Pile.

As you can see it doesn't matter which plot resolves first, because Melisandre remains on the table in a moribund state for the entire duration of the FAW. You can't get Mel back with Many Powers… because she's not actually in the Dead Pile when Many Powers… is resolved.

The real question here is if Beric is killed by Valar. If he isn't, Player B wins after the FAW is completely resolved. If he is, tough luck for player B, because Mel prevents all those shiny power tokens from counting right until the power is discarded when Beric hits the Dead Pile.

mbm said:

Well, all "When revealed" plot effects do resolve during the same Framework Action Window. Each "When revealed" effect is resolved completely before the next one begins to resolve, too. It's just that any card removed from play by any effect during that FAW remains moribund on the table for the entire duration of the FAW.

Unlike the Valar/Many Powers situation above, with Valar/At the Gates it *does* matter a great deal which plot resolves first. If Valar resolves first, the Maester you get with At the Gates is not hit by Valar, because Valar resolves completely before At the Gates begins to resolve. If At the Gates resolves first, the Maester is hit by Valar.

Hope that makes it clearer.

Breaking it down further here's the way the framework action goes starting with 1st when revealed

Initiate when revealed plot 1

Save/cancel responses to when revealed plot 1

Resolve when revealed plot 1

Initiate when revealed plot 2

Save/cancel responses to when revealed plot 2

Resolve when revealed plot 2

All other passives triggering off revealing plots (bay of ice, gtm, etc)

Responses triggering off revealing of plots

Moribund cards remain on the table and don't hit their respective places (dead pile, discard pile, hand) until after the last response

Ratatoskr said:

Of course, the situation from the post is answered by the observation others have made that a Holy character killed by a plot that is revealed at the same time Many Powers is revealed will not be a valid target for Many Powers since it will not physically be in the dead pile when the plot resolves, no matter what order the plots resolve in.

I won't belabor the point others are making. I'll just highlight the fact that plot resolution can be very confusing because of these nuances of timing. However, as a general rule, when plots are revealed, cards that become moribund by the resolution of one plot will not be physically placed in their out-of-play destinations until after all plots resolve. This is because despite being separate effects, they all happen in the same action window.

ktom said:

Certainly. But as you note yourself, in the OP's example the holy crested character he wanted brought back wasn't in the dead pile, but still in play, and that was the situation I referred to. Of course, when a character is actually brought back with Many Powers…, the order of plot resoltion does matter.

Ratatoskr said:

ktom said:

~Around here? Certainly not. Just like everybody meticulously searches the boards for answers to their questions before posting. And nobody who spent a considerable amount of their own private free time to answer an extensive set of questions would be called a "poopy head" for their effort. Ever. This truly is the La-la-land of the internet.

~Who are you guys anyway? I thought that on these boards the rules are clarified by the people who actually CREATED them???

Flint said:

~Well, ktom has been accused of making up rulings before, so that might just be true in a way.

I wish someone "official" took the time to post official rulings here >_<

eloooooooi said:

Fun-ruining aside, it's not a question of someone taking the time. FFG employees are not permitted, in almost all cases, to post on these boards. The code of conduct for these boards states clearly that they are NOT a forum for contacting FFG for any purpose.

radiskull said:

Totally tangential, but… Wait, what? Are you serious? That's not good… Some of the top games have an open dialogue with designers, even if the dialogue is one way with the designers telling people, "It's working as intended." SOME minimal communication is better than none. And arguably, the best communications are from lead designers occasionally coming to the boards and answering nagging questions. For example, a ruling like Meera in World of Warcraft would have seen a lead designer like GhostCrawler come on the boards and explain the thinking of the designers as to why they ruled it that way, even if everyone flamed them. They'd just ignore the flames and go on their merry way designing the rest of the game for the 90% of the people who just like playing it as intended.

And they would occasionally promise ponies… And then everyone would ask them where the ponies were… And memes would be created about said ponies… but that's even more tangential…

Also, KTom was an official Judge/Referee at the GenCon AGoT tournament, which is an FFG sanctioned and run tournament. He has some credibility when it comes to rulings, haha. He may have done multiple, but I've only been playing for a little over a year and wouldn't know.

mdc273 said:

I agree with you. But we do get some dialogue with the devs through rules questions and people posting those answers in this forum. I do not claim to know what FFG's reasoning for the policy is, but that is nevertheless my understanding of it.

But we do get, as you say, "some minimal communication" via the aforementioned rules questions and their FAQs.