The Hound
Text:
Ally No attachments except weapon. After a character's STR is lowered,return The Hound to his owner's hand.
I trigger Lead Link to let a character's STR -X, then the Pale Steel link response to jump The Hound (PotS) into play.
Question is "Will The Hound come back to my hand right now?"
No. The "lower STR" effect is over, done, and completely resolved before you initiate the "put into play" effect. As such, you are beyond the point when the Hound's text would interact with the old STR modifier.
ktom said:
No. The "lower STR" effect is over, done, and completely resolved before you initiate the "put into play" effect. As such, you are beyond the point when the Hound's text would interact with the old STR modifier.
If pale steel Link response to put a Taste of Blood into play, and the determination of win/lose has been passed, but the taste of blood will still response to get one power, right?
You said that it is possible to give a raven trait to an event just played then get two cards through Samwell Tarly, but when the event card is played, it is not a Raven card, right?
What is the difference between above two and the Hound case?
The rule book has a player action window flow chat that in the response time, there still would be the chance of Passive Ability.
Uncle Joker said:
All of your examples involve the response opportunity staying open. You can trigger responses in any order throughout the action window. But passive abilities initiate at the time designated when something resolves.
You are trying to say that the opportunity to trigger Response effects and the requirement to resolve passive effects are the same thing. They are not. Once Step 4 is over, you cannot trigger any more passives to things that happened in Steps 1-3, even though you are still able to respond to things that happened in Steps 1-4.
Uncle Joker said:
When you trigger Lead Link to give a character -X STR (Step 1), there is a "passive ability" step right after the attachment's resolution in which to resolve all passive abilities related to that resolution (Step 4). That is the only opportunity for passive effects related to that resolution, even though the opportunity to respond to anything related to it remains through the entire response step (Step 5).
When you are done resolving passive effects (Step 4), you move on to Responses (Step 5). When you trigger a response (Step 5.I), there is a "passive ability" step right after that response's resolution in which to resolve all passive abilities related to the resolution of that response (Step 5.IV). But Step 5.IV does not let you resolve passives for anything that happened in Steps 1-3, because you already had the chance to do that in Step 4. The "chance of passive abilities" in the response time relates only to new passives initiated specifically by the resolution of that response.
So, when you use Pale Steel Link to put The Hound into play (Steps 5.I - 5.III), there is a passive step right after that resolution (Step 5.IV) in which to resolve all passives related to triggering a response, using a link, or having a character come into play. But it does NO T replay all passives that were initiated before the Response was triggered. Since the character's STR was lowered by Lead Link way back in Step 3, the time to resolve passives related to that was way back in Step 4. You are well beyond your only chance to resolve passives related to Lead Link, so The Hound is safe - until the next time you use Lead Link.
The short answer here is that "response opportunity" is not the same as "time to resolve passive effects." The rules say you have the opportunity to respond to Lead Link lowering a character's STR throughout the entire action window, but only one opportunity to resolve passives to Lead Link lowering a character's STR - which comes before any responses are triggered.
ktom said:
Uncle Joker said:
The difference is that passive abilities happen before any Responses.
All of your examples involve the response opportunity staying open. You can trigger responses in any order throughout the action window. But passive abilities initiate at the time designated when something resolves.
You are trying to say that the opportunity to trigger Response effects and the requirement to resolve passive effects are the same thing. They are not. Once Step 4 is over, you cannot trigger any more passives to things that happened in Steps 1-3, even though you are still able to respond to things that happened in Steps 1-4.
Uncle Joker said:
You misunderstand. In the Response time, the "chance of passive ability" is for any passive ability that would be initiated by the resolution of that particular response only , not for passive abilities to everything that has happened previously in the window.
When you trigger Lead Link to give a character -X STR (Step 1), there is a "passive ability" step right after the attachment's resolution in which to resolve all passive abilities related to that resolution (Step 4). That is the only opportunity for passive effects related to that resolution, even though the opportunity to respond to anything related to it remains through the entire response step (Step 5).
When you are done resolving passive effects (Step 4), you move on to Responses (Step 5). When you trigger a response (Step 5.I), there is a "passive ability" step right after that response's resolution in which to resolve all passive abilities related to the resolution of that response (Step 5.IV). But Step 5.IV does not let you resolve passives for anything that happened in Steps 1-3, because you already had the chance to do that in Step 4. The "chance of passive abilities" in the response time relates only to new passives initiated specifically by the resolution of that response.
So, when you use Pale Steel Link to put The Hound into play (Steps 5.I - 5.III), there is a passive step right after that resolution (Step 5.IV) in which to resolve all passives related to triggering a response, using a link, or having a character come into play. But it does NO T replay all passives that were initiated before the Response was triggered. Since the character's STR was lowered by Lead Link way back in Step 3, the time to resolve passives related to that was way back in Step 4. You are well beyond your only chance to resolve passives related to Lead Link, so The Hound is safe - until the next time you use Lead Link.
The short answer here is that "response opportunity" is not the same as "time to resolve passive effects." The rules say you have the opportunity to respond to Lead Link lowering a character's STR throughout the entire action window, but only one opportunity to resolve passives to Lead Link lowering a character's STR - which comes before any responses are triggered.
Thank you Ktom.
It is clear now.
How would you manage to give an event card the Raven trait?
Events have a moribund state. They do not go to the discard pile as soon as you play then them or as soon as the resolve. They stay on the table, in moribund, until the end of the action window. Then they go to the discard pile with everything else sent to the discard pile in that window. So, for example, if you play the event "Westeros Bleeds" (which discards all characters in play), you could actually have the event on top of all the characters in your discard pile if you want.
So, since events have a moribund state, say that you kneel a Learned Maester with Copper Link attached in order to play Citadel Politics. After the event resolves, you could respond to the Maester being knelt to pay its cost by using Copper Link to give the Moribund event the Raven trait. (At which point, you could use the Response on Samwell Tarly to draw 2 cards.)