Does anyone where I can get correct values of the units?
Every overview (Official sheets, BGG-Files) state different values….
Correct values?
There are no official values for units, but two players I know of have produced their own for a ''points to buy system''
They are Freddie Yu and Ray Guns, if you ask them I am sure they will send you a copy. In fact Freddie's is available on BGG, I can't remmeber if Ray has put his on there.
Thanks for offering, but I want the (maybe) official values of the units. Because I think there are different values (example movement of russian halftrack, armor value for german tanks) in rules, sheets and unofficial player aids by fans.
Maybe you know which units has wrong values and you can state the correct values…
There can't be much wrong values, can be?
As I said, I don't think FFG have produced an official value for each item. Contact them, you never know they may answer.
But hope dies at last….
I may be wrong but I think Dogma79 is asking about the units values as in movement points, armour values, firepower and the such, not point buy values.
The official player aides that come with the game are the correct values for the units.
There are no official 'point buy values"
Yes!! This I meant.
But they are correct? Thought there would be mistakes…
One guy mentioned the russian halftrack f.e. has a movement value of 6, the others have 7. Really right?
Yes. Some people have found the russian halftracks strange, but there have been people arguing that -1 movement was realistic. But movement 6 is the oficial
The German MG also fires one extra die against infantry than the MG's of other nations do. This is intentional and I believe the Russian halftrack MV is too.
In the official FAQ it does say that the armor value of the Stug and jagdpanzer are to be lowered by 1 point (from 5 to 4), although personally I believe 5 would be more accurate. This however is different from the sheets that come with the Normandy expansion.
On BGG there is an overview of all terrain and units, though! (Fancreated, but accurate). There's also all the terrain from all expansions, which is great!
Infantry on foot, could not move faster than 5 meters/sec, and on average, probably move no more than 3m/sec.
So presuming that 6 hexes per turn is representing the typical avg. speed of a WW2 Halftrack at 60 kph, then the scale of a hex must be approximately in the range of 100 meters, and the Halftrack is traveling 1/3rd Kilometer in 20 seconds of elapsed time.
So an action phase represents about 20 seconds of elapsed time.
How far, then could an infantry squad travel in 20 seconds? Certainly not 400 meters, or 4 clear hexes.
In actuality then, in 20 seconds, at max speed of 5 meters/sec,an infantry squad could only move about 100 meters in a 20 second action phase.
If we say the scale of the game hex is only 50 meters, and an infantry moves 4 hexes, or 200 meters, then the action phase must represent 40 seconds of elapsed time.
If adopting this as the formula, however, then normal range values for the guns and tanks is far off the mark, as the maximum range (double normal range) value for an 88 Flak gun being 18 hexes only equals 900 meters, and this is FAR short of its actual real value of 1600 meter effective range.
So 100 meters has to the be the only logical scale for the game given the range values and the vehicle movement values, that the designers decided upon.
The only seriously unrealistic and exaggerated movement value in TOI, then, is an infantry squad moving 4 hexes, or 400 meters in a 20 second period.
Therefore, the realistic movement rate of an infantry squad, if a hex = 100 meters, is 1 hex/action phase. This, however, would slow down the game too much, so a compromise, is to make the rate 2 mps and use the Memoir 44 method, where upon entering a non clear terrain hex, the squad ends its movment. Road hexes in non clear terrain, allow the infantry squad to move through the non clear terrain as if it were clear.
VolksCamper said:
Infantry on foot, could not move faster than 5 meters/sec, and on average, probably move no more than 3m/sec.
So presuming that 6 hexes per turn is representing the typical avg. speed of a WW2 Halftrack at 60 kph, then the scale of a hex must be approximately in the range of 100 meters, and the Halftrack is traveling 1/3rd Kilometer in 20 seconds of elapsed time.
So an action phase represents about 20 seconds of elapsed time.
How far, then could an infantry squad travel in 20 seconds? Certainly not 400 meters, or 4 clear hexes.
In actuality then, in 20 seconds, at max speed of 5 meters/sec,an infantry squad could only move about 100 meters in a 20 second action phase.
If we say the scale of the game hex is only 50 meters, and an infantry moves 4 hexes, or 200 meters, then the action phase must represent 40 seconds of elapsed time.
If adopting this as the formula, however, then normal range values for the guns and tanks is far off the mark, as the maximum range (double normal range) value for an 88 Flak gun being 18 hexes only equals 900 meters, and this is FAR short of its actual real value of 1600 meter effective range.
So 100 meters has to the be the only logical scale for the game given the range values and the vehicle movement values, that the designers decided upon.
The only seriously unrealistic and exaggerated movement value in TOI, then, is an infantry squad moving 4 hexes, or 400 meters in a 20 second period.
Therefore, the realistic movement rate of an infantry squad, if a hex = 100 meters, is 1 hex/action phase. This, however, would slow down the game too much, so a compromise, is to make the rate 2 mps and use the Memoir 44 method, where upon entering a non clear terrain hex, the squad ends its movment. Road hexes in non clear terrain, allow the infantry squad to move through the non clear terrain as if it were clear.
Personally I don't take the values so literally. Unlike ASL TOI does not claim to be a fully realistic game. Allowing infantry to move up to 4 or 5 hexes simply opens up lots of options, which wouldn't be there if they could only move one or two.
Moreover, a vehicle is usually somewhat more hindered when they want to make a fire and move attack as they need to have at least two MP's left.
Might be nice though to see a scenario special rule in which infantry would indeed only be able to move one hex at a time.
Kingtiger said:
Moreover, a vehicle is usually somewhat more hindered when they want to make a fire and move attack as they need to have at least two MP's left.
Concerning relative movement speeds, armoured vehicles in combat do not move their full speed. AVs operating in support of infantry move a good deal slower than they could.
Not to forget that open ground in ToI is not the same as a flat, hard surface on which the AVs could move at full speed. What I am missing is a small bonus for tracked vehicles moving along a road.
I find that the relative speeds in ToI are OK for a small tactical situation. Outside of combat, motorized units are faster than leg units. But given the small scale of ToI, all units on board are always in the combat area.
KlausFritsch said:
Kingtiger said:
Moreover, a vehicle is usually somewhat more hindered when they want to make a fire and move attack as they need to have at least two MP's left.
Concerning relative movement speeds, armoured vehicles in combat do not move their full speed. AVs operating in support of infantry move a good deal slower than they could.
Not to forget that open ground in ToI is not the same as a flat, hard surface on which the AVs could move at full speed. What I am missing is a small bonus for tracked vehicles moving along a road.
I find that the relative speeds in ToI are OK for a small tactical situation. Outside of combat, motorized units are faster than leg units. But given the small scale of ToI, all units on board are always in the combat area.
Yes, I agree that all vehicles should have a road bonus (+1MP when moving contiguously along a road, starting and ending on a road), though perhaps not to the extent that trucks do.
As for the small scale of TOI; yes, it's described like that in the rule book, but if you take a closer look at the scenarios, you'll see that scales and engagements vary greatly in size and scope. Personally I have no problem with that whatsoever. Sometimes a tank can represent just that, at other times a platoon and yet again at other times perhaps even a larger sized unit. Then indeed the movement values, firepower etc. would be off, but so what? It's not ASLand what's more; many people think they're off as the game stands. One can also tinker a little with these movement values, firepower etc. using some special scenario rules.
Kingtiger said:
Yes, I agree that all vehicles should have a road bonus (+1MP when moving contiguously along a road, starting and ending on a road), though perhaps not to the extent that trucks do.
1 or 2 bonus MPs for staying on a road (paved or dirt) would be enough. No road bonus as for trucks, I agree.
Kingtiger said:
As for the small scale of TOI; yes, it's described like that in the rule book, but if you take a closer look at the scenarios, you'll see that scales and engagements vary greatly in size and scope. Personally I have no problem with that whatsoever. Sometimes a tank can represent just that, at other times a platoon and yet again at other times perhaps even a larger sized unit.
And that is one aspect of the scenarios they will never sell me on. I would like the authors of thoses scenarios to show me the infantry company or battallion which can fire effectively at several miles or even more.
KlausFritsch said:
Kingtiger said:
As for the small scale of TOI; yes, it's described like that in the rule book, but if you take a closer look at the scenarios, you'll see that scales and engagements vary greatly in size and scope. Personally I have no problem with that whatsoever. Sometimes a tank can represent just that, at other times a platoon and yet again at other times perhaps even a larger sized unit.
And that is one aspect of the scenarios they will never sell me on. I would like the authors of thoses scenarios to show me the infantry company or battallion which can fire effectively at several miles or even more.
Well, perhaps they are not meant to represent battalions in those scenarios, but perhaps regiments or even divisions (as they are listed in the set-up, haha!). Then they could have divisional artillery support, attached aircraft support etc. which would allow them to hit targets located further away in an abstract sense. As i said, i don't take the values and scale too literally. Of course you're entitled to your own opinion.
The 88 Flak gun is not very well represented in TOI. In a matchup vs 5 Shermans, which enter the board from 20 hexes away, which is the longest range allowed for the 88 Flak gun on a 2 level hilltop hex, the 88 Flak will be lucky if it can destroy 1 Sherman before the other 4 Shermans advance across the board, and are able to destroy the 88 Flak gun. And this in the desert, without any additional terrain advantages the Sherman could take advantage of.
So to reflect the deadly accuracy and long range capability of the most famous and feared AT gun in WW2 , the to hit die roll for 88 Flak gun at normal range, should be 4,5, or 6, and the long range to hit roll should be a 5,6.
Similarly, Tiger II and Panther should likewise have their normal/long range to hit die roll changed to 4,5,6 and 5,6, respectively, reflecting these tanks excellent range finding optics and 75mm gun on Panther having nearly the same accuracy and flat trajectory out to 1200 meters as did the 88 mm gun.
VolksCamper said:
The 88 Flak gun is not very well represented in TOI. In a matchup vs 5 Shermans, which enter the board from 20 hexes away, which is the longest range allowed for the 88 Flak gun on a 2 level hilltop hex, the 88 Flak will be lucky if it can destroy 1 Sherman before the other 4 Shermans advance across the board, and are able to destroy the 88 Flak gun. And this in the desert, without any additional terrain advantages the Sherman could take advantage of.
So to reflect the deadly accuracy and long range capability of the most famous and feared AT gun in WW2 , the to hit die roll for 88 Flak gun at normal range, should be 4,5, or 6, and the long range to hit roll should be a 5,6.
Similarly, Tiger II and Panther should likewise have their normal/long range to hit die roll changed to 4,5,6 and 5,6, respectively, reflecting these tanks excellent range finding optics and 75mm gun on Panther having nearly the same accuracy and flat trajectory out to 1200 meters as did the 88 mm gun.
Perfect for a scenario specific rule or OP card I'd say. Having normal, long and short range values differ for individual units as a blanket rule would be very confusing. You could also allow it to use concentrated fire twice or op fire twice to make it more lethal. Also a nice idea for an op card.