Do any of the books break down how to conduct a ritual duel between Dark Angels and Space Wolves? I have a Dark Angel player that is about to encounter a whole slew of Space Wolves and I'm looking for cool ideas to make this more than just a 1-round first-blood contest.

Don't know really but supposedly it could be fought with some primitive arms and perhaps without power armour and fight untill one side yields rather than first blood? Just some ideas but I'm sure other posters have better ones.

Gurkhal said:

Apparently not….

I think if memory is accurate that you can find a sword contest between imperial fist successor chapters in the book Legion of the Damned.

They make a contest in an arranged zone remembering the great assault of the Imperial fist upon the the fortress trap of Prospero during the battles of the heresy.

They fight in scout armor, weapons (2 gladius) are hidden in the battle field.

The price is the guard of the primarch sword.

The most important thing during such event is to translate the weight of the history upon the shoulders of the battle brothers as they mimic their primarch ages ago.

Since Space Wolves are involved I would suggest Holmgang

Holmgang was fought on an ox hide or cloak with sides that were three meters long. It was staked on the ground with stakes used just for that purpose and placed in a specific manner now unknown. After that the area was marked by drawing three borders around the square hide, each about one foot from the previous one. Corners of the outermost border were marked with hazel staves. Combatants had to fight inside these borders. Stepping out of borders meant forfeiture, running away meant cowardice. Combatants were permitted a specific number of shields (usually three) they could use - the opponent's strikes could break a shield. The challenged would strike first and then the combatants would hit each other in turn.

Stripped to the waist, shield in one hand, non-powered melee weapon in other. Take swings in turns with a slight pause allowed to change a broken shield but with a limit of three shields total. Fought to yield.

I don't know of specific description of the fight off-hand, but if you want to make it more interesting, the focus should obviously be on the ritual aspect. They are, while rivals, obviously still allies, so while it would be an all-out contest of skill, they theoretically would want to avoid actually injuring one another. Perhaps a way of doing this would trying to force the PC to roll a certain number of degrees of success: roll too few, and he doesn't hit the the target; roll too many, and he risks injuring the Space Wolf. Just an idea.

SM trying to not harm each other…

Fight without danger, without glory?

Faking a fight, between proud war machine defending their chapter and primarch honor?

You're kidding?

Their body is a temple of war they wear their scars like jewels, they need to fight truly, that's why they are living!

In the legion of damned book there is dead SM during the contest, killed by the arena sometime or killed by their fellow battle brother.

There is nothing more worthy of shedding blood than honor for those warrior.

And even gravest injury can be healed by apothicary who would assist any of such challenge. And if not they fight bravely, a worthy death one that can be tell.

Don't forget who are the space marine and what they do when their honor, their chapter honor came in line.

Sorry forgot about one little thing.

We are talking about space wolwes faking not even in their worst nightmare will a son of fenrys fight without all he's got.

Thebigjul said:

Yes, you can look at it that way, but you can also look at it as a ritual duel, not a battle. There are rules to the ritual duel, and while both warriors will go all out to attain victory, one can't attain victory by breaking the rules of the ritual. I could easily see the ritual as forbidding killing of the opponent - so far as to say that if either participant dies, both are considered to have lost (don't say that the one that dies is considered the winner or some idiot will commit suicide to gain an "honourable victory").

I suggest allowing only the combat knife as a weapon (although unarmed attacks are allowed) and both fight in power armour. The first warrior to become heavily injured (taken more Wounds than TBx2) or to be downed by Fatigue (primarily via Unarmed) is declared the loser. If one of the fighters dies, both are declared to have lost the duel.

i agree with you, the kill will not be the aim of the duel, never. but victory is and sometime death occur and it is the fate of warrior to die by the blade. Don't forget that a SM not fight as good as he can will be insulting his oppement, he will think of this like it and the other warrior will be insulted seing his adversary considering him not worthy of a true fight.

Space Marine aren't afraid to lose blood, flesh or even part of them if it serve their honor, give them glory and make them proud of their chapter.

They will not seek to destroy each other but you never know a bad move a failed parry a ripping blade and the death knock at your soul door.

Don't punish the battle brother for killing if it was not his will. Playing with deathly weapon is dangerous and each space marine know about it, no blame will be charge upon the "killer". Un less he show a mercyless and killer like attitude like finishing his oppement unconscious or heavely injured. That would be a real act of war.

For your duel I can only suggest you to use scout armor and traditionnal blade of the chapter like Knight sworsd for the DA and axe or blade from Fenrys for the space wolf. Knife can be cool too but cultural weapon can be quite an asset for the ritual background, something coming from the heart of the chapter history;

Awesome! Thanks to all that replied…you really got the creative juices flowing. I'll be using aspects of all your posts. I'll report back later with the results.

The "Ritual" duels between DA and SW are supposed to be legendary and meaningful. Traditionally this meant one champion vs. another. The champion was chosen by martial prowess. I would have it be melee only, until one champion was either dead or yielded. Each champion knows the risks before entering. The death of a champion isn't going to make the two chapters any more or less likely to fight each other. Dark Angels and Space Wolves have a rich history of rivalry, comraderie, and enmity each in healthy amounts.

I would have thought it would be interesting to have it unarmed and unarmoured, a situation that Marines rarely find themselves fighting in.

Obviously have it non-lethal, but the huge strength and resilience of Marines lets them fight like real brawlers, demolishing their surroundings and delivering blows that would kill a human. Go through every move blow-by-blow. Encourage called strikes. Create rules for arm locks, headlocks and so on. Get your PC to mime out his fighting moves (and get everyone else cheering him on and shouting suggestions, just like battle brothers would). Tell him in detail what the environment is like, so he can use it to his advantage, and have the NPC do the same. For example, if fighting in a wood, tell them there are saplings nearby that he can rip out of the ground and use as a staff. If fighting in a room, tell him he can pick up tables, poles, wall panels and throw them. If fighting in sand, tell him he can throw it or kick it into his opponents eyes. Have the opponent do all of the above to him. Have the fight move from one location to another (throwing one of them out of a window, into a river or sea, into a muddy ditch or down a hill) and have the spectators follow suit.

If you read the Lion vs the Wolf story, the Primarchs literally rip apart the hall they are fighting in. Have your marines do the same.

Sethis said:

Space marines never fight non lethal combat, not deathly combat maybe but none lethal?

They are not humanist prizing the life and health … They are genetic construct and breed killers!

Go play Barbie and make non lethal tea party or even invite all your girl and boy friend and make a super party from 1 PM to 4pm because after it's too late…

What the F****!

You are playing space marine and they never , never make an honour question light or unimportant!

Destroy the place the fight take place is of courrse a cinematic action that will pay for your players making then even more proud of them but the fight need blood and guts believe me.

I'd have them go at it like Russ and Johnson did it; bare-handed until one of them was knocked unconscious. It stays true to the reason why they fight each other and honor is satisfied without either Chapter losing a Battle Brother.

Thebigjul said:

Sorry to disappoint, but Marines train in non-lethal fights. Read the Horus Heresy books and the Training Cages - they can be set for lethal matches, but it is rare and unusual. Likewise, during early training Marines shoot at targets etc.

There are only a million Space Marines to defend the entire Imperium. Their lives are too precious to waste needlessly, and that includes honour duels.

A duel could be lethal in the case of one brother having betrayed another, or some really serious offence, but as a regular occurence? I don't think so. If they were fighting on a bridge over a chasm, and one was about to fall off, the other would grab him and save his life. The point is not to kill, the point is to satisfy honour and obligation.

Hey Bigjul, big guy!

Yes, you've misinterpreted the Lion versus Wolf duel - it is NOT about winning; it is about HONOUR. Win or lose is irrelevant; what matters is maintaining the Chapter's honour, brother.

For example, how will the assembled ranks of Lions and Wolves react if your victory-or-death spacewolf cheats in order to win? Will his brother wolves cheer his glorious victory? Will the Lions ever forget?? And what if a Lion cheats: will such a dishonourable champion continue to rise through the Dark Angel rank circles? Will the wolves sit by and watch their brother suffer defeat at the hands of a cheat??

You can well imagine. This is not an all-out berzerk fest of imperial fist inferiority-complex-mania. This is about honour. Remember, after the original primarch fight, the Lion and the Wolf fought alongside eachother as brothers and, indeed, friends. The chapters are NOT enemies; rivals, yes, with diametrically opposing martial philosophies; but hardly could any other two chapters respect each other more.

So, onto topic, what our group did was an unarmoured fist fight, as per the original battle, as suggested here by others. Another option i'm keen to try is an armoured knife fight (as demonstrated in artwork in one of the sourcebooks: Dark Angel and Space Wolf back to back with sneers on their faces and knives drawn - awesomesauce!) Such a knife fight would NOT be to the death; but it'd be one f#!k of a good fight.

I like the idea of an armored knife fight. It takes a lot of work to actually kill another astartes with those knives, even as big as they are. The fight stops on a yield, or on an incapacitation via zero wounds. Critical damage may happen, but thats what apothecaries are for. I think a duel between a Wolf and a Lion should leave scars. How better to honor the tradition than to bear the scars of such a bond.

Indeed! My only concern is how long the freakin' battle might take……..

What about keeping on gauntlets, forearm plates, and all armour from the waist down? "Shirts off" as it were. So no helmet, no chestplate, no backpack, no shoulderpads etc.

Give them Armour 4 or so instead of armour 8/10. Might quicken things up a bit. Enjoy the impacts as they deliver power-armoured kicks into unarmoured midriffs, and punch bare faces with gauntlets on, while blocking knife attacks with an open palm and knee strikes.

Sorry i've been quite nervopus by the time I write the last message.

Yes SM train with possibility of non-lethality.

But we are not talking about training but a ritual duel remembering the time the emperor and his sons walk the stars.

Few of the primarch was kind and gentle, and even between them they were fighting truly. Even the emperor and his sons has put their life in line when challenging each other. Vulkan would be dead if the emperor had not help him during their contest. Have you read about Angrom and his sons, how many die in his hands before he admitted them as his legion? Does Space Wolves play non lethal game? Is there any son of Caliban who will denied his adversary a good fight? Sons of Dorn fight to death for a sword of their father. The Iron snake fight with the sea and the monster inside and some of them die there…. If life was so precious the scout will never be send in battle before they are made Battle Brother, imagine the time and effort put in the making of a scout, is it worth waist it behind ennemy line? Yes because only the brave and the good warrior stay alive. And them the heroic spirit legacy of a chapter pass from generation to generation.

We are talking of a death oriented civilisation, blood is life, blood is honor, blood is a reason and a goal.

In a such warrior culture it is my point of view that none of them will fight under 150%.

Death is what awaited for SM and none of them denied it, and die fighting is the best of way to die.

You can make your 40K world more happy and kind, but don't forget that this is a place where billions of people get sterilized and deported, world destroy all life wipe out because they might be corrupt and be a danger to the rest of the Imperium.

Sure death will not be the aim of the ritual fighter but as warrior they are they know that every fight could be the last. It is this kind of psychological popint of view that made the SM such a force. Death is only the normal ending of life, nothing to fear, nothing more to think that make it the most glorious possible.

In the end do as you like of course, I'm just an other stupid single minded GM with a dark look upon the stars of the Warhammer 40K. And as GM or player in the last 20 years i've never been afaraid to kill or to die as fictionnal character.

Well, that's the problem: you aren't a spacewolf or a dark angel; clearly, if you were, you'd never, ever be allowed to engage in the duel, cause you'd frell it up in your desperate win-or-die attitude, which is completely beside the point of the honour duel. (And i'm not trying to be personal, here: i'm simply responding to yer post's last line…i'm sure in real life we'd get along fine together; just trying to hammer out a few dints, as it were - i, too, am a stupid single-minded gm ) Now, to be clear, I am not, in any way or form, stating that the warriors engaged in the duel will fight less hard than they are capable of - indeed, they will be fighting all the harder, as they will have to take pains to ensure that their actions are all completely honourable during the duel. Fighting all-out is easy, easy peasy. Fighting with restraint? That's something else entirely… hell, one can easily view the dark angel/space wolf duel as the two chapters sharing and teaching eachother their fighting styles, in order to bring some restraint to the wolf's heart and some good, pure GEAAAH!! to the angels…(a valuable lesson to the respective brotherhoods on the eve of battle…)

And, really, who wants to be responsible for slaying a fellow servant of the Emperor on the eve of one bloody awful battle (as it must be if it involves both the wolf and the lion)?

I am not upset by your post and comment and yes i guess we could be quite friend in the real world…lol

Maybe I let my son of Angrom personnality take over from time to time… or maybe I let speack the son of maccrage not so often.

Don't remember really…

You've made your point, and as I understand it you see it like a virtous challenge between knights.

Yes it could be and will be for you and will surely be really nice.

May the Lion and the Wolf live forever and their pride shine trough the galaxy.

Huzzah! Good on you, sir!

Now, to be sure, there are indeed chapters out there who are real supreme dickheads, and who wouldn't hesitate to do whatever it takes to accomplish the mission at hand, and would have absolutely no problem slaughtering their allies if it meant success….my point is that, between these two chapters, such is not the case. I mean, part of the reason they have the ritual duel is to prevent themselves from getting all up in each others' faces and causing some sh!t. (And, of course, if a lion/wolf conflict serves a desired plot point, then, too, trouble could brew; but that would be an exceptional circumstance, to my mind, not an everyday occurrence. I seem to recall Ragnar having predominantly good experiences with the Dark Angels he encountered - hell, he even helped against the Fallen, if I recall correctly; that's bloody damned exceptional, no?)

I know not of an instance where another chapter helped against the fallen and were not subsequently cleansed by the Dark Angels afterward. The 1st and 2nd companies of the Dark Angels do not leave witnesses when the fallen are concerned. I don't know that it didn't happen either, but I would be very surprised if there was a canonical source implied such an event.