Hey everyone! I'm currently working on a bit of a rules hack for Only War to use it as a new Dark Heresy. I've already built all of the DH careers (including Battle Sister) as Specializations, and am working on some rules for a Cell Creation system to replace the Regiments. However, there are a few questions I have that may potentially add new homebrew.

1) Space Marine Scouts. They're tough, they're sneaky, they're well-armed, and any Chapter worth its salt is drowning in the poor bastards. Would it make sense to send one with an Inquisitorial cell? I've given them a write-up over in my thread on the Beta forums and think they make an interesting (and balanced) addition, but want your input on how okay they are. Currently armed with choice of Bolters, Shotguns, or Sniper Rifles, with a monoknife and carapace armour.

2) Crusaders are on of my favorite fellas from the wargame. They're henchmen with a knack for melee combat and self-sacrifice, tending to be devout and pretty tough to crack. Would they be justified as a Specialization? If so, what would you kit them out with? I'm thinking Good Swords or Common Shock Mauls with a Shield and Carapace armour…

3) Inquisitorial Shipping Containers are an idea I have to justify having a "standard kit" with a built-in base of operations. Imagine a big box with ammunition, clothing, food, other supplies, and things like a cogitator or a vox-link to a ship in orbit. Would this be acceptable or completely idiotic?

Feel free to throw in other suggestions as well. Thank you!

Plushy said:

1) Scouts? Oh god no. Fluff wise it doesn't make any sense for them to work with the Inquisition, since they are literally trying to learn the ways of their battle brothers and watch them in action. Also, what makes you think that chapters are drowning with them? Space marines take on lots of new recruits but most die in the surgeries and the "tests" they like to put them through. Scouts are not that plentiful but it depends what you mean by drowning. Regardless, I don't see any justification for it unless someone has a really compelling argument. Even though scouts fight for many years in their role and are hardly "rookies" (they're still insanely elite compared to most other shock troops and have their genetic modifications already in effect) they are still just young pups to the chapter, and they wouldn't go loaning them out unless it was as part of a larger force.

2) Crusaders are in Ascension. I would just look at that, but it's a high level role.

3) This doesn't seem idiotic at all. According to established fluff, most Inquisitors seem to travel with a network of citizens and ships that are more or less requisitioned, so they take most of that stuff with them. Surely though if they were trying to be even more dynamic they could pack away gear like that and just have it shipped around. I think it's a cool idea, for certain types of operations.

I was afraid of the Scout thing. There's no real good way to justify having an Astartes in a given party, but **** if someone doesn't always want too. Time to homebrew a secret program to engineer Scouts for the Deathwatch, i guess.

The Crusader in TT is on-par with the Banisher, which was a rank 0 alternate rank in DH. I think I'll end up with something in-between an Arbitrator and a Sister with it.

Glad to hear someone likes my idea for the box!

For between an Arbitrator and a Sister, why not a cleric?

Cymbel said:

I do believe a Cleric with a sword and shield would fit. Whoops.

Someone at Black Industries came up with the idea of Sororitas Novices as temp cell members. The justification given was, as far as I recall, to further cooperation and good relations between both organisations, as well as to train such individuals in joint ops. It doesn't exactly line up with GW fluff, but of course it works well enough as an excuse to allow such party members in a group of DH Acolytes. And I can perfectly see the very same excuse being made for Marine Scouts, if their Chapter has a history of working with the Inquisition. Obvious examples would be the Red Hunters or the Excorcists Chapters. I think it would fit best if such a cell is working for the Ordo Xenos branch of the Inquisition, as the chance to encounter alien creatures in such a game is, I suppose, somewhat higher than for Ordo Hereticus or Ordo Malleus cells to fight a daemon, and a Marine's skills would be somewhat wasted on the task of hunting down mere cultists. Furthermore, this could make the perfect career move for a later deployment in the Deathwatch.

Personally, I would advise "unifying" the equipment, though - an opinion not only borne from continueing to refuse accepting the newly invented artificial gap between normal and Astartes equipment, but also the simple realisation that such "+1" gear is quite capable of perhaps not breaking the game, but at the very least making other combat-focused characters feel emasculated. With their sheer biological superiority, it's not as if Marines would have truly needed that boost, anyways, and I continue to see it as one of the biggest hurdles for crossover games.

Just my two shells on the subject, of course.

Lynata said:

I'm sure I could find some one to sneak one into the game.

As for the Gear, no worries. I armed the fella with his choice of Shotgun or Bolter, Light Carapace Armour, a pair of Frags, and a nice knife. He's also got less in terms of everything than the Assassin.

Astartes scouts are recruits, the future lively hood of the Chapter and as such wouldn't just be loaned out. The only chapters i know of that break from this system are the Black Templars and Space Wolves.
The Templars are a crusading force - a means for them to circumvent the rule of 1000 battle brothers to a chapter is to constantly be crusading and thus suffering heavy attrition. Rather than having traditional scouts they utilise Neophytes as meat shields for the battle brothers (known as Initiates) in their standard battle squads. Theoretically i could see a more gregarious Black Templar commander allocating a small number of Neophtes to an allied Imperial Guard or Inquisitorial formation both as a means to bolster the humans abilities and as an act of proving for the Neophytes. Basically - last man standing gets to come back to the chapter and join up properly.

Space Wolves are the other non-standard Chapter when it comes to scouts. They field their recruits in Blood Claw packs - basically power armoured but non-jump pack equipped assault squads that roam ahead of the main force and harass the enemy. Instead their scout squads (known as Wolf Scouts) are in fact veteran marines, more cool headed and tactically experienced that carry out the traditional roles of a scout. They also are not attached to a particular company and instead are all part of a singular 'pack' that is answerable only to the Chapter Master (Great Wolf), unless assigned to a commander for a specific mission. Using Blood Claws wouldn't work at all well - these are untrained, bloodthirsty brutes in power armour that might as well run around screaming they work for the Emperor to any and all that would hear them, something completely contrary to a lot of Inquisitorial operations. A Wolf Scout on the other hand could work, in fact there is already an alternate rank advance scheme for them in Deathwatch, the only issue being that they would only really work with the Deathwatch and as such only Ordo Xenos - i couldn't see them running around with Hereticus or Malleus retinues.

Regular Scouts are Astartes in Training. Not even all their biological enhancements are working, depending on their service time, and the Chapters would not lend an "untrained" man that is even no battlebrother though they are still far superior to the most soldiers mankind can offer.

If an Inquisitor "asks" (Yes, he actualy has to ask) for support by the Astartes he must realy have special reasons to aquire this support for a long term operation (And the Chapter should like him). And then they would send a maximum of one Squad that is at most 10 Marines wich is 10% of the regular strenght of a whole space marine company and this squad will only be given to high combat situations.

To require a Space Marine as a Retinue is a great act of gratitude to an Inquisitor and nothing he should view as "regular". One marine is around 1% of the numeral attack power of a space marine company and a force of its own. But a chapter would never send a "rookie". And if they send a Veteran-Sergeant of the Scouts you have a PC around 100 Years old that will outclass any stealth/melle/ranged character and is unbeatable in social situations with rightous citiziens of the empire.

Who the **** opposes a friggin holy astartes, an angel of death in conversation? And 99% of the empire even dont know the difference between a rookie-scout and a veteran-sergeant. Only the high-ranking institutions of the empire can keep their doors "closed" before such an individual.

Plushy said:

I actually ran a Deathwatch game where the party was entirely Scouts; the justification I gave was that the team was formed for political reasons, to show solidarity and unity between the different Chapters. (The Space Wolf was a bit peeved because normally Blood Claws get power armor, so becoming a Scout was a downgrade for him.) They were only supposed to train together as a cultural exchange, and leave for their chapters again after a while; they were only deployed for action on Tantalus (for the Extraction mission) because there were no other strike teams available.

They were actually at their best while in carapace armor, because power armor gives PCs a delusion of invulnerability, making them more likely to perform reckless charges instead of thinking things through.

To a common citizen, it's the power armor that makes the Marines' distinctive silhouette; a Scout would still be recognized as a Marine thanks to the chapter markings, but they might have to point out that they're not full Brothers yet, and that's why they're not wearing power armor. They might also be embarrassed by the reverence and respect they'd be given; if they're Scouts, they probably still remember being a normal human quite clearly. "Be not afraid" comes to mind.

As for who would dare argue with an Astartes? An Inquisitor. In fact, the Inquisition and the Space Wolves in particular have had several minor wars over their disputes. Mind you, said Inquisitor would have to either have enormous political power, brass balls, or be terminally stupid, but there you go.

I just wonder how Scouts can have "any" cultural exchange because they are in fact scouts because they dont have "soaked" up all the culture of their chapters yet (and lack of expirience) - and without the status as battle brother they wont see the true chapter culture. And in my interpretation of the fluff I cant see any reason for scouts beeing some beacon of "unity". They are trainies, their chapters are responsible for their actions but by no means an ordinary scout can have any official representative function for his chapter, he is in fact no battle brother by the codex astartes. And espcialy chapters like the Dark Angels, Ultramarines or Black Templars wont let go any Scout from their real chapter training. The Dark Angels would be afraid of some wrong thoughts in the Minds of the Scouts, the Ultramarines would fear the influence of a furiuous Space Wulf that could erode the disciplin while the Black Templars have their own special Scout-"programm". I think no Chapter would send a very good scout (And for such a "unity"-event it has to be a worthy one) to send him of the "chains" of the champter. These are the battle brothers of the vuture, the only thing they have to know is about the chapter and their enemys. The Black Templars dont need their "Scouts" educated by the "arrogant" Ultramarines. Well, thats my view on the fluff but in the end its up to the gm.

I just wonder who played the the sergeant of the squad, atleast there has to be some kind of veteran, mostly a vet-sergeant because even if this was a project of unity there has to be a sergeant. And the "training" as you say is the deployment. No scout is only exercising his training lessions, in fact scouts are a regular force deployed by space marines because only real battles can prepare for real battles.

And for their status. Yes, they are no full battle brothers… but how would you feel in a grimdark theocracy when you meet a soldier (depending on the status of his implants taller/stronger/etc. than you) that is chosen to become the incarnation of the god-emperors wrath, to become the bringer of doom, an angel of death, a holy warrior? Who cares if thats an angel of death in training? ****, this man is what the legends are made of. This man stands for all hope than mankind can have in the most dire situations! If an imperial citzen is in his darkes hour, he will pray to the emperor to send his angels. No matter what rank they are made of. That is more authority than the most cleric players will ever get. For an imperial citizen there is no difference between a scout and a battle brother. All he has been tough of the space marines is their status as demi-gods, angels or what ever they call them on their planets. They are the emperors finest. And to be chosen to become one of the finest or die, is more than any rightous citizen can even imagine.

If you attach such an individual to a regular akolythe cell other players will be outclassed. Yes, such powerfull individuals like Inquisitors might have some power about a lone scout. Okay. But do you realy believe a sector gouvernor has the guts to imprision a scout? He might be no battle brother but atleast he is an astartes and therefore untouchable for any authority beside the high senate, the chapter or the inquisition. Yes, he still might get shot in a dark croner of a street but in any official or non-combat situation he is a friggin astartes acting in the name of the emperor, more than the most others will ever do.

There were no Dark Angels in the group, there were no Black Templars until they got their power armor (he was a DMPC, he basically acted like Sgt. ******* and I planned for him to take a Tau rail-rifle round to the face and die), and the single Ultramarine in the party was the de facto leader, and surprisingly humble about it. We had a Space Wolf Devastator, an Ultramarine Assault, a Salamander Apothecary, an Iron Hand Techmarine, and a custom-chapter Tactical (called the Death Jesters).

Yes, Scouts are usually deployed into battle as part of their training, but the Tantalus operation is intended for fully-armored battle brothers, not a stealth team of trainees. Basically, all of this was an (admittedly flimsy) justification as to why the Deathwatch would get Scouts from different chapters and get them to work together.

Space Marines should not be attached to a Dark Heresy party unless the party is at Ascension level. This holds especially true for Grey Knights; lesser Acolytes would be mind-wiped or shot just for having seen a Knight.

A Scout would be no less revered by the common citizen than another Marine (except for someone like a Captain or a Chapter Master, but even other Marines practically worship the ground they walk on). But unlike a full Marine, a Scout was just a human not long ago; perhaps less than a decade. So they'd be keenly aware of how a normal human feels to look up to a Marine; they were in the exact same position. Full Marines have been serving for centuries, so their memories of this time might dim, especially if they come from a particularly arrogant chapter.

Well, a very, very young Scout might work (especialy because his organs for unatural toughness/strenght etc. dont work at this stadium and outclass anyone else - later on ascention they can be "activated") but then there is the question what reason can be there to give such an individual in the hands of an inquisitor? The Problem is not the life of the scout, the problem is the gene seed and the organs that have been given to the scout and make him very important for the chapter. Additional the chapter cant be sure what thoughs such an Inquisitor might plant into his mind and though the scout gets indoctrinated when he becomes a full battle brother there are still fragments of his former personality there. Only a hand full of chapters practices full mind cleanse.

And even if the scout remembers his live as an "ordinary" man (though he was even special gifted at this stage) and tells the people to not worship him. Wouldn't that be like well… Jesus or any other Saint that says "Hey, Guys, threat me like one of you." but atleast everyone still had in his mind that this is a special guy? And though a space marine is a warrior in the first place his word has more power than an word of an "ordinary" priest or cleric when it comes about the imperial creed or anything else official. He will totaly take over the role of a "good" face while the scum can still be the best "bad" face. And the worst thing, the Astartes dont have to roll any felloship die. He can simply expect the "ordinary" people to believe in his words though he is limited in his actions like lieing etc…. just like many other clerics.^^

And about Grey Knights… in my opninion a Grey Knight as nothing to do in an akolythe cell… there might be around 1k Knights to be on guard to jump into the most dire daemonic infestations… its simple a waste to attach a night to an inquisitor for more than one mission. And even then its special. Normaly the knights get called when a world is burning in the flames of daemons and the enemys has been scouted by lesser forces like the imperial guard or even other space marine chapters. And then they perform their charge like no other force of them empire could ever do.

They are the ultimate tool of destruction, their status allows them to wipe out a full delegation of another chapter just to get one recruit. This man does not get wasted for investigation but stands before the mightiest deamons, side by side with the grey knight for only those are able to hold the ground against uncountable odds.

As to the cultural exchange idea discussed above - astartes recruits are taken at a young age, ideally before puberty has fully kicked in (so like 10 to 12 years of age). The hypno-doctrination and education of a marine will be fully underway by the time they are implanted and gene-hanced and considered a Scout. It's only the Black Carapace implantation (a hardened, bone like structure under the skin that acts to interface a marine with his armour and increase his toughness also) that is lacking at this stage so a Scout would fully be able to take part in a cultural exchange. They also wouldn't have seen enough action that they'd have forgotten all of their childhood memories at this point, so would also still have some cultural knowledge from their human lives before being recruited and many marine chapters recruit from a dedicated planet or two, further linking the human culture with their own.

Actually I could see the cultural exhhange thing work. Deathwatch probably has it's fair share of problems betweeen battlebrothers of different chapters that don't mix. Ultramarines and Space Wolves come to mind.

A scout team would have had enough training in their duties to have tactics rub off on eachother but wouldn't be fully ingrained in old grudges and hatred. They might want a veteran from a certain posterboy chapter to lead them on the "proper" path, which could lead to some alienation and hostilities. But in general space marine chapters need all the scouts they can get.

There was still some interparty conflict, with the hotheaded Space Wolf and the overzealous Iron Hand frequently butting heads with the Salamander and Ultramarine, who were more level-headed. I suppose they were both jealous because they did not share the blessings of the Codex Astartes, penned by the spiritual liege of all Space Marines.

Ghaundan said:

Have to disagree to an extent. Those Brothers who take the Oath aren't newbies to their Chapters. Codex Devastators, for example, have been through the entire Dev-Assault-Tac rotation once and gotten back to Dev. A Space Wolf Assault is likely equivalent to a Blood Claw sergeant than a new recruit; a Black Templar Tactical is probably not a guy recently ascended to Initiate from Neophyte, he's probably trained some Neophytes himself.

If you take away Chapter conflict, you take away the Chapter spirit. A Chapter would consider this spiritual pollution or corruption of ancient, lauded ideals. The DA/SW rivalry is more brotherly than bitter; the RG/WS rivalry is about trusting your brother (and knowing not to). Chapters have vested interests in keeping these traditions alive. The Deathwatch, as a pastiche of Chapters, has a vested interest in not suborning established Chapter traditions, because if they do that too much, the Chapters will stop sending warm bodies to take the black.

I just can't see Codex Scouts being seconded. That they exist as a Requisition choice makes sense: Astartes Chapter X is operating on Vanity; it has a number of Scout squads used as spotters/snipers and getting field experience in the process. For some promises and a nominal fee, Chapter X's scouts can do some sniping for Kill Team Y. But those Scouts aren't steeped enough in Chapter culture to be seconded; doing so could make them very un-X-like and when they come back to Chapter X, they may not even know who they are or what their Chapter is like, causing a lot of internal problems.

Kasatka said:

But tha's completely contrary to the character of the Chapter as honour-obsessed crusading knights. The Neophyte < Initiate relationship really comes off more like that of a Squire. In fact, the description given in the codex is actually described as something quite similar to that. It's all but named it. I can't see Helbrecht being too happy to hear about his Marshals casually throwing recruits in to the wind. At the very least it's contrary to tradition, so.. yeah.

And I agree that it's very unlikely a Scout would be seconded to the Deathwatch (perhaps he was rescued and returning any time soon is inconvenient), but I don't think the Deathwatch takes only veterans. Anyone of exceptional talent could be offered up, and sometimes it seems like a Marine will be sent to the Deathwatch as punishment (seems odd to me too, since noone wants to send someone who could bring dishonour on to their Chapter).

Any "scouts" encoutnered as part of the DW would be full Astartes using scout armor for.. some reason, likely operation specific.

Really the only chapter with Scouts that would be seconded to the DW would be Space Wolves. The general principle behind DW marines is that they are already accomplished, blooded warriors, no PC in the DW game is meant to be a "level 1" Space Marine. (fluff wise anyhow)

You could make any sort of exceptions I suppose if you HAD to have an astartes trainee in a DH group, but I guess the question I would ask is… why?

From a fluff standpoint an inquisitor would have access to better trained and equipped troops than what is effectively half a space marine. What task is a scout going ro fulfil better than an assassin or scum trained for stealth and shooty/stabby goodness?

CaptainStabby said:

Lynata said:

Good answer, I'd say.

Sure and I can make a friendly Dark Eldar with twin power scimitars and a cyper panther too and that still doesnt make a lick of sense fluff wise either.

"Cause I want to" is rarely a good reason to do something game mechanic wise. If I had a player ask me to play an Astartes scout in a DH game I'd talk to them about what they were trying to accomplish with the character, what made that appealing etc… You can make essentially the same character with existing rules and it involves no handwaving or weird contrivances. If the ONLY thing the player is hung up on is "I want to be an Astartes" well, frankly they should be playing DW or BC.

That said, everyone runs their games different and if you're having fun, go for it.

Has anyone made the same complaint back when Sororitas Novices were introduced?

"Cause I want to" is what very likely determined the majority of the deviations that make this game's fluff different from GW's version of the setting. Why do you think that, around here, players can choose to play a Vindicare Assassin permanently assigned to some Inquisitorial cell? Or why do you think that FFG chose to decouple the Deathwatch from the Ordo Xenos, let alone introducing an artificial equipment gap? Or why do you think that, following 5 weeks of players demanding this, the standard lasgun just got variable power settings in the latest update of Only War's beta rules? All of this goes against fluff that was established elsewhere, yet for some reason there it's okay?

I would recommend being less hypocritical when making an argument like that. Or at least trying to abstain from inflammatory comparisons to a certain D&D character.

It is not too difficult to come up with a somewhat believable fluff excuse for allowing an Astartes Scout in a DH group. Actually, all you need to do is copy-paste the justification they invented for the Sororitas Novice, and replace any mentioning of "Sisterhood" with "Red Hunters Chapter" - voilá.

As you said, everyone runs their games differently, and everyone has a different perception of the setting. You may not like OP's idea, but that doesn't mean it has to be ridiculed.