Ok, so hear me out on this one: after the FAQ update, Zigil Miner no longer gives you resource equal to the cost you named (assuming, of course, that you discard a card costing that much when you use his ability) and instead gives you resource equal to the number of cards that match the named value. If you were playing a deck with a lot of high-cost cards (I had a fun Zigil Miner deck that was based around green 3-drops), the Zigil Miner is obviously much less powerful in decks based around his ability, but it's now possible to play the Zigil Miner in a deck with a lot of low-cost cards (0- and 1-drops) that would have been useless for the Zigil Miner before now. If I use Imladris Stargazer to reveal 2 0-drops and 3 1-drops from the top of my deck when I exhaust her, I can now rearrange the cards in such a way that the Zigil Miner gives me 2 resources when I activate his ability instead of just the 1 I would have gotten from him pre-errata, so the Zigil Miner actually works better in this type of deck than he did pre-errata.

I point this out not because I think that the Zigil Miner is a strictly better card overall now (he's much less powerful in decks built around him), but it seems like it might be easier now to slide him into some decks that wouldn't have benefited from him before and have him make a real impact. The errata on Zigil Miner is particularly interesting since the other two errata released simultaneously (for PoL and Beravor) made both cards strictly less powerful, and I would have expected something similar for Zigil Miner (especially given the phrasing used in the FFG article announcing the FAQ and errata).

Am I crazy here? Are there any other people who weren't so keen on including Zigil Miners in some of their decks but who are now changing their minds in light of the errata? Is the card actually more playable now than it was before?

I think you have a really solid point here. Thanks for balancing out the opinion-zone!

Zanebane said:

this……he has lost his 'umph' that allowed you to get the most out of him….(ok im just going to go ahead and say expoit him)….but i guess he allows for some more deck choices.

i still hold that he has pretty much been put to the grave for most players though, unless of course new cards come out that will make him more useful, which they may.

though i do think you have a point

it is defiantly true that the super exploitive ziggy decks required a very strict set up, and I think the new ziggy is kinda the same.. but there is now zero need to add lots of really high cost cards .. so he can be placed in "normal" decks much easier.. the question of this being an offset to the general terribleness is all discussed in that other thread.

I mentioned this before, but I played last night and I still think Zigil Miner can be super powerful, especially when combo'ed with Stargazer or Gildor. When using 3 copies of unique cards that you want out fast, like Vilinor, Asfaloth, Vilya etc, Miner can plow those extras out of your deck once you have them already. He can sift the deck and give one or two resources a turn doing so. If you take one Miner, Beravor, and your standard draw, that is going through five cards a turn. You might not have them all in your hand but the cards you need are, and you most likely have enough resources to pay for them.

I find this to be pretty nice.

richsabre said:

Zane, I am one of the Zigil "exploiters" that had his heart broken with the new erratta… lol. So, much thanks for this fresh look at the change. And it's more than just a bone-toss, it's a viable point.

Rich, even with the punch to the midsection that was the erratta, I've never been of the "Zigil is dead" crowd/opinion. I think there's too many people like myself that used him as a crutch and are reacting strongly now for it… lol. He still is a great 2-drop for any Dain-led dwarf deck, and now can be used for his versatility as a quester/meat-shield/shanker that can occasionally pick you up a resource or two. If I gave that same description (a 2/2/2 ally that can generate even one or two resources) about any other ally, people would rush to include them in their decks. Granted, that's with Dain and dependant on deck manipulation (quite honestly, the errata almost means that I have less use for Stargazer or Gildor now as well), but there's only a couple dwarven allies that I would use outside of a dwarven deck anyways (and that would be mostly for attachment pull and condition shedding).

Yes, I am sad to see the era of Big Ziggy come to an end. But I think we'll become better players for it

… or maybe just I will have to.

benhanses said:

haha…..thats a good one- though i can say with some pride that ive never once used a zigil deck, so hopefully taking this thread into account i can start finally using him without feeling like i was breaking the game at the same time

Ben, I was definitely a Zigil Miner exploiter myself before the errata too! I play with my wife, who runs a Dain-Gimli-Gloin dwarf deck, and she hated my Eowyn-Bifur-Beravor Zigil Miner deck. When I was taking my turn during the planning phase, she'd pick up her book until I'd finish exploiting my Zigil Miner engine. Last night we played The Redhorn Gate after I modded my deck to incorporate the changes in the errata, and we both had a lot more fun than we'd had previously. Not building my deck around high-cost cards allowed me to incorporate a lot more dwarves (like miners of the iron hills and erebor hammersmiths) that I hadn't played before because they hadn't been expensive enough, and of course, Dain made them pretty fantastic. I also found myself (*gasp!*) using some of the Zigil Miners to quest for 2 willpower each turn (thanks to Dain) instead of using them for resource gen every turn.

I came away feeling like the Zigil Miner had become a lot more flexible, and that's what led to this post. If you're running a deck with the stargazer in it (and why wouldn't you if you're including spirit cards? She's great!), incorporating the Zigil Miners can provide you with a solid questing ally (remember, Favor of Lady costs 2 for +1 willpower to a character, so for many quests, a Zigil Miner, even without Dain, is at least functionally equivalent to that card) who can provide reliable resource gen if you ever find yourself needing that one or two extra resource to play your Gandalf or Northern Tracker. Sure, it may not always be as awesome or reliable a resource generator as Steward of Gondor, but it's the best resource gen you'll get in spirit (and it's better than Horn of Gondor or Love of Tales, which, correct me if I'm wrong, are pretty much your resource gen options in the other non-leadership spheres…I'm not even going to mention Resourceful since I'm not sure a secrecy deck is really viable yet), so if you'd like to include some resource fixing in your spirit-lore or spirit-martial deck, the Zigil Miner looks like your man.

booored said:

I'm not sure we need to get hasty here and say it was defiantly true…but I would certainly see an argument about it being definitely true!

…. the most powerful old ziggy deck, the one that could pull 18 resources in addition to the 3 standard ones required a vast amount of 5+ cost cards. This is "defiantly" true. To exploit ziggy.. not use.. but exploit.. another word is abuse.. you were required to build decks around ally cost counts. This == a strict deck build.

I was thinking they could give him an option to discard 1 to 3 cards - and get a resource for each that matched the named number. I really liked him as an acceleration through the deck, which is applies now, the option would really make things better. But they tried not to make him too strong and the certainly achieved that. The card as it is now does make more sense than as it was before. I am just a little puzzled how ffg could not see it as too powerful before they released it. I certainly miss some combos and rules regularly but I posted about Zigil (and Gildor) the day I first saw them previewed. Some people said "nah" I have to add. Haha. And with the Gazer things got even more crazy, my mapmaker could easily quest for 25+ in the end game.

Question:

Why would you need extra resources in a deck with only 0 and 1 cost cards?

quit said:

mainly 0 and 1 ……throw a map maker in there and you're sorted

quit said:

I don't think I'd play it in a deck that contains ONLY 0 and 1 cost cards, but it's plenty useful in a deck composed of MOSTLY 0- and 1-drops. If you have lots of card draw (there are good cheap card draw options now…my main deck has Beravor as one hero with gleowine and 3 Daeron's Runes an 3 ancient mathoms, plus I have two erebor hammersmiths that get my ancient mathoms back for me), extra resources means that you can play more of the cards you just drew even if they're 1-drops. Plus, I'm playing a dwarf deck, which means that, yes, more resources means that it's easier to pump the mapmaker, but it also means I'm able to use the ability of the excellent 1-drop Erebor Record Keeper on a regular basis. Also, you've gotta have a Gandalf or two in most decks, and in my own deck, I've also chosen to include Northern Tracker since he's so great on so many quests despite his high price tag. More resources makes it easier to get these cards out.

I obviously don't think the Zigil Miner has a place in every deck, but I do think it has a place in most spirit decks these days, and it's especially good if you're keeping the cost of your cards low (i.e. less than 3) in general.

Zanebane said:

Hmmm, perhaps I wasn't quite the exploiter I thought I was… I typically ran most of those dwarves in my deck (Dain/Bifur/Dwalin) because they were also turned into a questing horde by Dain… I really only ran maybe 5-6 cards that were 5-drops (and three of those were Gandalf), and only a small number of 4-drops as well (Northern Tracker and a couple uniques like Faramir). I guess I really only had a solid dwarf deck build that added a small Ziggy machine…

Perhaps I can finally let go of all that guilt that I've been hiding, the restless nights, the excessive sweating, the rush of fear whenever I hear sirens!!

Zanebane said:

Very true, but honestly, part of my reason for using Ziggy was so that I could pass on using the unique SoG when I played with others, to allow them the ability to use it without stepping on each others deck… (this is true)…. See, I was only using Ziggy out of SELFLESS and giving reasons! MORE guilt has been alleviated, and I now should be considered for near-sainthood by the Vatican. The Pope plays LOTR LCG in the library there, I hear… (this is not true)…

Zanebane said:

Slightly off-topic, but I'm of the same opinion about secrecy to this point, but they are doing a good job of making that viability a reality. I doubt wnyone will ever run a secrecy-only deck anyways, but at least the card-base for it is growing. And I do want to have a serious go at it soon, as I love the mechanic idea. A RL friend (who is also in these forums) gets crazy excited about the concept, and feels that the new Elrond will actually help secrecy decks, as the problem he experiences is paying for multiple spheres with only 2 heros without boggin your hand down with songs… we'll see. I see his point, but I don't have the experience with an actual secrecy deck (I sprinkle the cards occasionally) to feel that pain… Soon, I imagine!

I nvr really gave resourceful much leave either the I saw a gameplay vide by Tragic and he ran 3 copies + steward … loaded them all and steward on a single hero and gave it songs (though I would probably use the belt)… end result… 5 resources a turn and he had zero problem casting a 4 cost neutral card to start the combo and no secrecy needed…. I have completely been turned around on this card and have added it to most of my decks and I think I have nvr once been sad for drawing it.. I think this card is a real "win"

booored said:

Agreed. Can you imagine what all of that (SoG and Resourceful x3) will be like on Elrond, particularly if he has Vilya on? 6 resources per turn on him alone, plus full access to play Spirit and Lore, and allies for Tactics/Leadership. And the ability to play any card for free off the top of the deck. Or any card out of the top 5 with Stargazer… BEFORE you even think of playing his 6 resources from that turn… or you can…. well, let's just say it could get crazy stupid.

Not to get too off-topic here, but my main problem with Resourceful in a non-secrecy deck is that it takes 4 turns to pay for itself. You usually can't play it on the first turn, and most of my best decks (I play 2-player) can get through most quests in about 6 turns, making resourceful worth less than its cost unless I draw it in the couple turns (and even then I only really get one or two more resources out of it overall at best). There may be decks built around it that work, but I think it takes too long, and it's not the sort of card you can just drop into most decks (unlike, I'd contend, a post-errata Zigil Miner).