And I have explained more than once why I don't think this will get you what you want. It's just theory, like your example above, where using Heroic Task isn't a problem because you somehow never need a mulligan, where you are somehow guaranteed to quickly draw the hero and the cards you need to launch the infinite draw, where your opponent for some reason doesn't destroy the hero, the artefact, or any other card in play you need. With assumptions like these, every combo is too powerful and requires errata, not just the AP ones. It's just theory a deck with this approach will dominate tournaments. Best of luck, but I doubt the devs will be convinced by theory alone.

Mallumo said:

With all respect - We already have what we want. Arcane Power is "limited" on our National Championships. If FFG and players like You don't want to see the problem and make this spell "limited" - what can I say… We will see during Worlds, who was right and who was wrong. You wrote before that Arcane Power need to dominate some big tournament to show devs that is still too powerful. In my opinion World Championships are the best opportunity for that.

Teokrata said:

If you want to show that it is powerful at Worlds, why errata it yourselves for the Nationals? Why not just show that it is too powerful at Nationals? Also, if it doesn't get changed before Worlds, aren't you kind of screwing yourselves over by playing an unofficial ruleset for your National tournament? It seems like that could (possibly) cause a player to advance who otherwise wouldn't have.

Becouse We don't want to screw our most important WHI tournament? and We want to win World Championships? I have a strong feeling that You don't understand, that We are not talking about one deck or even one combo engine or one race. Unlimited Arcane Power is seriously too powerful in any order deck with reccuring cards like Gathering the Winds, Star Crown Fragments or Order in Chaos. I have also the feeling that You have never play such deck or against it if You don't understand why Arcane Power should be limited. Another solution could be additional errata "destruction only", becouse all reccuring cards are from order, but "limited" is little more fair to all 6 races. If You want more reasons, please ask Jaszczur and Darker, I do my part.

Entropy plz dont feed troll

But Teo got one point, why the hell we should sacrafice our biggest tournament to prove something ?

And this home made rule will only prevent from winning by the random guy with luck in his unstoppable combo.

So dont worry about our player on World's, Whole Poland we train him if needed.

And 2nd thing, FFG should change something in his politics, realesing faq without good testing and hoping it will be good or players will test it, and we will correct it in next faq i really bad.

Remember when Jaszczur won with a killer Reclaiming the Fallen deck and Reclaiming the Fallen was below the radar on these forums before that tournament? If my memory serves me, everyone was talking about the Empire and how nothing could be done about the dominance of that race. Not that they were powerful, that absolutely nothing could be done to stop the Empire, so why try? The reason we play the games and don't just compare decklists is because there is so much luck involved in any random system (like drawing cards) that things don't always go as planned.

It's really easy to get caught up in big ideas. One big idea not too long ago was that the High Elves suck, they were thought to suck so bad that people didn't even bother with them. Now everyone believes they are amazing, seemingly overnight. You could say that they got a lot of strong cards (which they did) but I'm saying that the tone on the forums wasn't a measured and thoughtful "Hm, seems the High Elves are gaining momentum", it was a knee-jerk "High Elves have good cards in the latest pack, good to see some love, but nothing can beat RECLAIMING THE FALLEN!!!" You can replace Reclaiming the Fallen with any deck du jour.

If the really good Invasion players in Poland feel that a tournament needs to have a house rule for a card, then fine. Sometimes we house rule on our Thursday night game sessions because we have more fun doing it that way and that's the bottom line. But the idea that without house rules the tournament will be ruined is a bit backwards, isn't it? The tournament will always be known as "the tournament with that house rule". I, personally, don't want to be the guy who won the tournament with an asterisk next to my name. So the idea that the tournament will be ruined without the house rule is wrong, saying that it's more fun with the house rule is really the only reasonable way to defend any house rule in my mind.

I'd also like any new players that browse these forums to note that these discussions about one card are very advanced and in no way reflect 99% of the gaming experiences you will have with this game. To get to the point that players like Teokrata are at, you have to play probably hundreds of games with hundreds of different cards. Only then will some cards appear so overpowered, but it's wrong to be discouraged about trying new things just because of the forum discussions on one card.

Bravo HappyDD, well said. I have been playing this game from the start. I remember when Orc rush was too strong, and Skaven rush was too strong, and then High Elf bolt thrower was too strong, then Dwarves were too strong, Visit the Haunted City was too strong, Empire in general was too strong, Reclaim was too strong, Sorcerer of Tzeentch was too strong, now Empire and High Elf are once again too strong! What the hell guys?!? It's a living card game! it's going to go through cycles. Strong builds are going to come and go. Get used to it. Play/build around it! This game rocks and is so much fun, it seems a waste to sit around complaining about it. I remember those same comments that HappyDD was talking about when there was all this talk about the Empire being unstopable. But, the Dwarves won! Then excuses were made for that. Let's wait and see how new decks play after the errata before we start moaning again about yet another build. Also, another good point made by HappyDD, who really wants to be the winner of a tournament when official rules were not even used? Sad.

Our homerule to National Championships is also as You said "for more fun" its true, but what is more important - for competition. When every good player plays unstopable Arcane Combo deck, which can draw all deck for free and win in second turn it is no fun, it is no copetition, its not about skill, its about luck. That's why we have a homerule. Please, try to think about all new and even avarage players - they have no chance against such decks. Invasion is great game and there are many playable and fun combos without abusing Arcane Power tactic. That looks similar to VtHC times, when one card dominate whole meta, and everything was about that quest and ways to stop it or just slow it down. That is simply wrong. With limitation You can still use Arcane Power in for example HE Eltharion or RTF and win, but without truly too powerful options like drawing all deck for free generating unlimited resources and indirect damge the same time…

Some correction can be also done with Gathering the Winds, in my opinion posibility to play more than one spell is too powerful. Fix that and maybe we can play Arcane Power with current errata and without limitation… But if You ask me - that card should be limited - and that solve almost every problem.

HappyDD said:

In general, I support this point of view (fun!), however I must still add, that I loathe every infinite loop and unstoppable combo in general, and I like them to be removed from game entirely - not even because win-lose issue, rather just as a healthy rule.

As I usually avoid tournaments due to their fun factor replaced in most cases by huge portion of angry youth frustration, so I guess this cannot be taken as serious voice in this discussion by some serious fighters here. Nevertheless, I understand when someone says that such thing can ruin game experience (and in effect - experience of "fair" competition); sometimes sheer awareness that pure luck and overpowered card IS ABLE to decimate you, no matter what you do, is enough to spoil desire to play the game.

But of course I understand what you say - yes, lamentations are generally pointless and equally destructive as the thing they address, as most of the time it's exaggeration. Replace theory of decks with playing these decks - yes, sir.

HappyDD said:

Hey, it should be placed in sig!

Teokrata said:

I think it doesn't work because you have to target a card from your discard with AP and your gathering is always in play when you play AP

Maybe Mallumo or Entropy could confirm

Djibi said:

This is why you need the Scroll of Asur or another cheap cost spell in the mix. The sequence is:

=Remove tokens to play spells with GotW

=Resolve second spell played (in this case Scroll)

-Pay costs and choose targets (none).

-Resolve spell text (not much)

-Trigger "then" portion of GotW (which discards it).

=Resolve first spell played (Arcane Power)

-Pay Costs and choose targets (oh, look! GotW!)

-Resolve spell text (draw card, return GotW)

-Trigger "then" portion of GotW (N/A)

cyberfunk said:

First step : "remove token to play spells with GotW".

When you play AP, you need to choose your target. AP's target has to be in the discard pile. Right? GotW is still in play, so it cant be targeted by AP even if GotW is in the discard pile when you resolve AP. You need a valid target when you play the tactic and when you resolve it

When you use GtW, the only target you have to choose is the spell, which is already in your discard pile. You don't have to choose targets for AP at this point because you have not yet played AP, you have simply targeted it to be played in the future when the GtW action resolves. You only play AP when the GtW effect resolves. The first time the GtW ability resolves, GtW will not be in the discard pile and so AP will not be able to target it. The second time this happens, it will be in the discard pile, because the first GtW action will have fully resolved (including the the part about discard GtW).

It's a little counter-intuitive, to be sure, but the FAQ is relatively clear that this is how it works.

it's clear now. thank you!