It seems little attention has been paid to the rewording of Frenzy, which I believe deserves more discussion.

First of all, let's get something out of the way: the idea that under the previous wording of the Talent, an average Ogryn would pass out due to having his Int reduced to zero. Well, a similar concern was raised in BC over the Terminator Armor and dropping Agility, and here's the official answer from the official Errata/FAQ:

Question: Terminator Armour gives the wearer a –20 to Agility when worn. It is entirely possible that this might bring a character to 0 or less Agility. This, according to page 256, renders the character Paralysed and unable to act though. Is this correct?
Answer: The dropping Agility to zero and being Paralysed is only from Characteristic Damage, not temporary penalties.

Obviously, the same applies to Frenzy and Int, there's no reason for it to work differently.

Now, knowing that under the previous wording of Frenzy, no Ogryn was ever in danger of passing out, let's talk about the new wording.

Put simply, Frenzy was an awesome Talent, because it combined huge benefits with huge downsides. The rewording keeps the downsides about where they used to be, but cuts back on the upsides - namely, since it now just confers bonuses to Characteristic-derived rolls, it doesn't increase SB and/or TB anymore. I've always considered these increases the most crucial part of the Talent, and am not comfortable with letting them go without any compensation.

What do you think?

Same here. Also, it doesn't upgrade WS Bonus, which in this game is a consideration for certain talents as well.

Fully agree, I was always under the impression that Frenzy would simply increase WS, Strength, Willpower and Toughness by 10 while decreasing BS, Intelligence and Fellowship by 20 (although only as a temporary penalties so it doesn't count as characteristic damage).

I guess the best way to achieve this would be by wording frenzy like this:

" on the next round he goes into an uncontrollable rage, gaining a +10 bonus to Weapon Skill, Strength, Toughness, and Willpower, but suffering a –20 penalty to all Ballistic Skill-, Intelligence-, and Fellowship-based Tests.”

I'm actually perturbed by this, I hadn't read it before you pointed it out. This is now…well not exactly bad it's a long way from the happy talent it used to be. The penalties still fit the flavor of the talent but the bonuses just don't sell me on it anymore: you lose a turn, are an incoherent beast for a bit, and don't really get better at melee? This needs to be fixed, that hurts the talent and makes those melee Ogryn feel extra wimpy.

Makes you wonder if there is some sort of internal rule where bonuses/penalties like that have to be meted out in the same way (as in penalties to tests mean that it can only give bonuses to tests, etc.).

Obviously, the BC ruling is all that was really needed, but it would be nice if it was just simply bonus to characteristic, penalty to test. That would make it easy to read and impossible to argue.

Makes you wonder if there is some sort of internal rule where bonuses/penalties like that have to be meted out in the same way (as in penalties to tests mean that it can only give bonuses to tests, etc.).

It's simply a rule of good game design: All other things being equal, a rule that is uniform and even will be better than one that is not. It's the same reason why all bonuses are multiples of 10 - much easier to remember and calculate with than if, for example, frenzy gave +9 WS, +14 S, +8 T and +7 WP. If there wasn't that thing with the ability bonuses going on, I'd be all in favour of making bonuses and penalties affect the tests instead of the abilities. Then you don't have to remember whether it's the plusses that apply to the characteristic and the minuses that affect the test or the other way around.

The way it is, though, we'll obviously need the real stat bonuses back, even if it shatters symmetry.

Cifer said:

That's also true. I guess it doesn't bother me as much since the WS Bonus is only a concern since BC (and thus not as ingrained in my understanding of the rules), but it's definitely an equal concern.

how about having frenzy add unnatural characteristics (+1) to ws, s, t, and wp in exchange for -20 penalties on tests using int and fel?

HappyDaze said:

That wouldn't really help with toughness tests (like withstanding poison attacks or stunning weapons) or attacking in melee without Lightning Attack / Swift Attack. At least not when making the test, only when they pass it.

HappyDaze said:

How about going back to the perfectly good wording the power had in BC and OW prior to the change?

Perhaps with a one sentence clarification of the Int penalty thing so as to avoid people constantly complaining about Ogryns passing out.

I'm sure I'm going to run it that way, should it come up.