To clarify, and I'm sure it's needed:

Basically, this Autumn Forge World next war book is coming out and it is Part 1 of the Horus Heresy. I know my housemate will be excited by the prospect of new models, Heresy Era Terminators and Primarchs (presumably).

And of course that wonderful fluff that FW writers are so good at. Don't think it's going to be as groundbreaking (as say the Badab war books) initially, as it will presumably be re-hashing the HH novels but I wouldn't be surprised if the later books are brought out sooner than their novel counterparts.

So what does a naked Primarch look like?

:0)

--

Horus Heresy the roleplaying game?

Face Eater said:

Yeah, I saw this too. I am very excited about this.

The Forge World books level peg with FFG books as my favourite works set in the 40k (now 30k) universe. The quality is excellent, and I really like their tone: the sort of dry, factual, historical approach. If they brought out a book a month, I'd buy it.

I agree it can't be long before we see a 30k RPG. The universe there is big enough and exciting enough for all sorts of adventures in that setting.

Perhaps FFG could put out an alternate settings book like Green Ronin did for L5R and White Wolf did for Exalted. The Heresy, the Badab War, perhaps a Black Crusade or Armageddon… rules for doing a game in a chapter or legion setting. Of course, that flies in the face of the "Deathwatch" moniker, but they really shouldn't let that stop them. Maybe a supplement for the Heresy that includes stuff for both Deathwatch and Black Crusade…

I could see a model working that way. Be a good place to put some real rules for single Chapter units as well as historic background details and I can see a Badad War and Heresy, or even Great Crusade.

For other 40K rpgs (boo hiss) you could have Siege of Vraks for Only War, Age of Apostasy for DH (obviously not really touched on at all yet).

Of course there might be real licence reasons for not doing so, I hope not.

And of course, I almost dread to comment on this up in the face of 'Why no Xeno love'.

I see the "30k RPG" model working best as an update of Black Crusade. That game had a power level which permitted Astartes to work well alongside non-Astartes, but I think the emphasis on Chaotic characters and the setting was a bit of a turn off for some people.

Translate that system across to the Horus Heresy setting, though, and you've got all kinds of options: Navigator characters, Sisters of Silence characters, early assassin temple characters, Custodes characters…and of course marines from all 18 Legions. It would be a game which would give more flexibility than any of the other 40k lines.

Plus, it would be in a true "historical" setting where players could have fun foreshadowing the events of the Heresy as they play…The more I think about it, the more I think a 30k RPG is an inevitability.

Lightbringer said:

>Sisters of Silence

>Custodes

Day one buy.

Lightbringer said:

I think the last thing people would want in a 30k game is disappointing Space Marines.

If ever there is a time to truly embrace their legendary status…

Space Marines actually die really easily in the Horus Heresy series. Apparently Space Marines suffer from Inverse Ninja Law.

Conservation of ninjutsu is a pretty fundamental property narrative. No one is free from it. Not Xenomorphs. Not Gods. Not Space Marines.

--

That said this is the time of legends - the War in heaven. God, Jesus, the Archangels Michael, Gabriel, Raphael etc. and the Heavenly host are battling Lucifer and his Fallen Angels for the fate of the megaverse. This is the Trojan war, and we are watching Achilles battle Hector outside the gate of Ilium.

This is it. These are the most heroic heroes the setting has to offer. We are statting Sigmar Heldenhammer himself and he'd better be something special.

(Course, this leads to the problem that the Heresy is really the story of the Emperor and his Primarchs, and any roleplaying game runs the risk of being like Pendragon at its worst when you follow around Sir Lancelot watching him do awesome stuff rather than doing awesome stuff yourself.)

(For that matter I have never liked the idea of First Founding legions - who thought it would be a good idea to codify that GWs house chapters are automatically more awesome than anything players can create themselves? Not to mention that players can't create their own Primarchs!)

Basically, I think we need a game where people play Primarchs. And the Emperor himself. Or at least a special scenario where that happens.

Well, as far as I am aware, the original reasoning for the "lost legions" was to allow players to make up their own founding legions. Of course the Horus Heresy books have now made it official that stuff had happened to them before the books start, so that kind of squashes that now.

I dunno about Primarchs, but I think we can definetly be assured to see the Legio Custodes get models and stats. As this was the era when they were still running around, engaged in combat operations (however limited).

mfw the first rule in the book is " Space Marines get +1 to all stats, everybody else can go suck on it) ".

But more seriously, depending on whether they want to cover any of the time when the Traitor Legions were still loyal, I would guess that the first book would roughly match up to the first 3-4 novels. With the Luna Wolves, Loken, et al., and the other famous heroes that we grew to love (or hate, like Erebus).

AluminiumWolf said:

That's your opinion, and I'll thankyou kindly to remember that.

borithan said:

Well, that is partially true, but like the whole thing with Grey Knights being made from 'the Emperor's Geneseed', it's always been one of the dark and obscure bits of 40K lore that those two Legions, and their Primarchs, did something really bad (which makes you wonder, considering the Horus Heresy). Even before the tossed noodle-incedent style references to them in the HH series.

+++++I dunno about Primarchs+++++

I would be very surprised if we don't see Primarchs (and the Emperor). There are already a number of companies making Primarch knock offs, they are not afraid to use them in the books, and a lot of people are looking forwards to getting their Primarch models.

+++++mfw the first rule in the book is " Space Marines get +1 to all stats, everybody else can go suck on it) ".+++++

Someone on Warseer? used to have a sig that went something like 'The next version of 40k will introduce a new stat - Awesomeness. Space Marines are a 7, everyone else is a 1. Games are decided by whoever has the highest Awesomeness stat'.

I guess my problem is that I thought that was a pretty good idea.

AluminiumWolf said:

Wolf, that's the least of your problems

UncleArkie said:

Wolf, that's the least of your problems

I know I am a bit of a single issue poster, but, like isn't this what people really want from their Space Marines?

I mean, here we are coming up on the 100m Olympic final, and everyone is talking about the legendary athletes involved, and with the Olympics in general (in the UK especially) people have been building up the competitors - Bradley Wiggins, Victoria Pendleton, Usain Bolt, Michael Phelps. People like Chuck Norris hero worship stuff.

AluminiumWolf said:

Well, models I can definetly see, it's stats that I find iffy (for the Emperor too)

If you're going to stat The Emperor, you might as well find a way to stat Tzeentch next, or the Old Ones. While Primarchs are just as problematic as putting C'Tan on the table. They're freaking inarnate gods, they might as well have a special rule that automatically gives them the win. They're too powerful to stat up properly, beyond even how it is with Space Marines, and even toned down they will be absolutely sick to the point where it sucks the fun out of the game.

And I've said before, I love Space Marines, but Deathwatch has a pretty goood scope of their power laid out. Which goes just fine with my personal preference of having to actually fight for my character's victory (putting the literal in to "hard earned").

+++++Well, models I can definetly see, it's stats that I find iffy (for the Emperor too)

If you're going to stat The Emperor, you might as well find a way to stat Tzeentch next, or the Old Ones. While Primarchs are just as problematic as putting C'Tan on the table. They're freaking inarnate gods, they might as well have a special rule that automatically gives them the win. They're too powerful to stat up properly, beyond even how it is with Space Marines, and even toned down they will be absolutely sick to the point where it sucks the fun out of the game.+++++

I doubt their tabletop stats will allow them to live up to their reputation. But hey, I don't think Marines tabletop stats allow them to live up to their reputation, so that is nothing new. :-)

(Of course, I think a roleplaying game where no one has to play (and more importantly paint the models for) the opposition is where they CAN live up to their reputation…)

+++++And I've said before, I love Space Marines, but Deathwatch has a pretty goood scope of their power laid out. Which goes just fine with my personal preference of having to actually fight for my character's victory (putting the literal in to "hard earned").+++++

I dunno. I don't want to make to much of it but I would swear at the Olympics we like people who dominate their events. If Michael Phelps was a country he would be the 24th most successful country in Olympic History (about as successful as ALL OF INDIA!). Usain Bolt, the Big Man, is a legend and no one came close to him. Serena Williams destroyed Sharapova in straight sets to win gold and everyone loves her. Jessica Ennis accelerated away from the rest of the field to win her last event by a margin and the whole country went nuts.

But Wolf, that doesn't relate to a table top game at all. Games like these are about having at least some semblance of balance, if the Olympics were like WH40K Phelps would start 3 seconds after everyone else, so you can't really compare the two.

That said, Forgeworld has stats for titans, thats probably ca what a primarch is like

According to widely believed rumors they are going to have Primarch Stats and Models. They've said they will be Apocalypse only, which has titans and super daemons so having there's plenty of room to live up to the fluff, as much as anything else in the game does.

+++++But Wolf, that doesn't relate to a table top game at all.+++++

I agree. But this is a roleplaying game, and we do not have to worry about such things!

:0)

(That said, this is mostly an image thing. I think people in general respect a dominant athlete more than someone who has to scrabble for wins. That said, my own personal hero this year is Ben Ainslie partially because I sail a bit, but also because he tends to win through determination and relentless aggression and killer instinct. See, because of the rules of sailing competitions, it isn't just about how fast you can go, but also how good you are at ******* your opponents. In particular, because it is a series of races, and you drop your worst results to decide placings, it is sometimes better to ensure your opponent comes in at the back of the field in a particular race than it is to win said race. And through wind blocking and the rules on collision avoidance, you can make that happen (the rules on collision avoidance in also tend to make racing very much about getting in the way of people in general). Anyway, at his first Olympics, even though he was a faster sailor the then big man forced him in to second place by aggressive use of said rules. He decided he wasn't having this, and at the next Olympics, he very much went after said guy using the same tactics only with even greater killer instinct and won the gold. Then he won gold at the next two Olympics, usually with his metaphorical foot firmly on the neck of his nearest rivals. This year, things were looking bad. In the first half of the races he always placed behind the Danish sailor. Then the Dane and another competitor accused him of touching a marker. "They've made me angry," he said. "You don't want to do that." And the fight back began. In the second to last race, with Ainslie leading and the Dane in second, he actually dropped back, let the Dane catch up, and then by placing his boat upwind of his opponents and blocking the wind on to his sail, he forced the Dane in to third place. By doing so, all he had to do in the last race was place ahead of the Dane. Which he did, sitting on the Dane to make sure he didn't get ahead.

Anyway, this was dragging out a win by refusing to give up, so.)

+++++That said, Forgeworld has stats for titans, thats probably ca what a primarch is like +++++

Primarch vs. a Titan?

No contest!

AluminiumWolf said:

How easy a time do you think these people have? Phelps, Williams, etc., they're competing in the olympics, against some of the greatest athletes in the world (okay, so Sri Lanka or Kazakhstan may not have some of the best), they've been training for years, these sports are their freaking lives. Phelps didn't casually backstroke his way in to his latest gold medals, he combined a lifetime of training with tonnes of natural talent and during the actual competitions you can be sure he tried his hardest every step of the way.

Do we like the people who "dominate" their events? Yes? Are you totally blowing this "domination" out of proportion? Yes. It's not like Phelps sat around for 5 minutes while everyone else finished the race, one fuckup, missed stroke, bad start, whatever, and Phelps would have been hitting the bong to make up for the fact that he didn't get squat, let alone bronze or silver. Look at the times for the races he's been in, he's only been fractions of a second ahead of the other competitors.

To reiterate, people train and work on their performance their whole lives before going to the olympics, pouring their blood, sweat, and tears in to it, to be a little melodramatic. It's not easy for a single one of them, and they can't rest on their laurels for a second because that's not the kind of behavior that takes you all the way to the olympics. Every one of them has earned their gold/silver/bronze medal. Hell, they've earned their place on the freakin team, since you have to be among your nation's best to even qualify.

And as they actually have to try, to fight, for their win, so to do I like to do the same when playing an RPG, even a Space Marine. Especially a Space Marine.

But we do need to get what we're talking about straight, don't we? You keep changing the base parameters, one moment it's about the table top game and fielding primarchs, then it's about the roleplaying game, back and forth depending on what suits your argument. Please, a little consistency mr. Wolf.

+++++But we do need to get what we're talking about straight, don't we? You keep changing the base parameters, one moment it's about the table top game and fielding primarchs, then it's about the roleplaying game, back and forth depending on what suits your argument. Please, a little consistency mr. Wolf.+++++

I think I have been consistent!

I think:-

The Forge Worlds book will include rules for fielding Primarchs, but their potency will be toned down for balance reasons in the same way regular Marines are.

However, a potential roleplaying game doesn't have to worry about balance, and is a great place to let people experience the Primarch Power they have always dreamed of!

--

+++++And as they actually have to try, to fight, for their win, so to do I like to do the same when playing an RPG, even a Space Marine. Especially a Space Marine.+++++

I dunno. Phelps and Bolt are quite clearly better than their opponents, and they are the guys we like.

If they make a 30K RPG, they'd have to be crazy to make the Primarchs or the Emperor playable. The only things less than fellow Primarchs that have killed a Primarch are an assassin who was allowed to kill Curze and Dorn riding a battleship into a nuclear explosion. I wouldn't find any pleasure in playing some ubermensch who swats away Deathwatch Master-level enemies without breaking a sweat. I need the chance of failure to enjoy a roleplaying game. Dominating everything gets old. As to the potential Titan vs Primarch match, it all depends on the specifics of the match. If they start out ten meters away from each other, and the Titan doesn't get the chance to stomp on the Primarch, then yeah, the Primarch wins. But Titans have such massive firepower that they would incinerate a Primarch at range.

Like I say though, it is the dominant athletes who get all the glory.

And anyway, the whole point of the Heresy is that half the Primarchs square off against the other half, so there is your competition right there.