Having just finished a fairly high powered Dark Heresy campaign and planning to move on to an Ascended game at some point in the future I have discovered that I have problems with the way penetration and armour work. I find that if you have high end weapons (Plasma guns/power weapons/melta weapons) armour is largely irrelevant as the penetration rating of such weapons makes it pretty much useless.

I don't just want to start boosting armour ratings as a counter as that would make bolt guns/hellguns more useless that they already are so I am looking to see if anyone else has come up with any house rules for this (and hopefully playtested them!) before I have to try and write my own

Not sure where the issue is. All the weapon types you mention are meant to make a mockery of personal armor and step into the anti-vehicle scale. This is like my running a modern era game like Twilight 2000 and PCs and opponents get access to 40mm grenade launchers or auto-shotguns with FRAG-12 HEAT (a shaped charge grenade for 12ga military shotguns). I'm not going to look at upgrading armor since no amount of body armor would ever protect you from those weapons. PCs have just moved up to a newer, more dangerous power level and best learn to adapt to it.

Instead of tweaking armor, the PCs at this point should be looking at defensive fields for protection against these high powered weapons.

You have to look at it as on TT.

Flak is 5+ if I remember correctly, Carapace is +4, Power Armor is +3. Termies are +2

Plasma is AP 2 (ignores termie armor and all below), Hellguns are now AP3 (power armor and up), melta is AP 1 (everything and makes vehicles sad), Bolters are AP 5 (rip through flak, but little else) and Lasguns are AP- (no pen at all)

Then if you take that up to DH, Plasma and Melta ignore it all or **** close, Hellguns are **** powerful (but full on Space Marines and Termies have some defense), Bolters wipe out flak and lasguns don't do any pen.

It may not be perfect, but it fits TT and Lore (and common sense)

I agree with the comments made here, I don't think there is a problem with Plasma and Melta weapons, they are only slightly less scary at Ascension as they are in the main game, and really should be reserved for one off scary bad guys rather than something the PC should be facing all the time.

If it's the PC that have the melta/plasma guns, then I can understand it's a little frustrating to plan an NPC (like a power Armoured human) only to have that power armour mean nothing. That said, you can still have opponents with Unnatural Toughness, Fields, High Dodge or numbers, all of which can threaten the team and all don't care about the pen rating of the weapons.

Well, if a NPC has power armor, they prolly have some other good gear, add in one of those heavy shields, a heavy weapon or just something to give them the scariness factor. Also, as noted, Unnatural Toughness, High Dodge, Personal Shields or SHEER NUMBERS (especially with decently armed ones) and for higher up folks who you don't want their gear just "looted" add Genelocks or other forms of preventing weapons to work. One idea for a lark, hardcoded spoor targeters, with the NPCs as Friendlies and the PCs not.

Cymbel said:

Brilliant! Totally stealing those ideas.

I have no problem with my players having good equipment , if anything I think the Dark Heresy rules make getting access to good weapons fairly hard for PC's. At the end of the last campaign they where the chosen acolytes of a senior inquisitor trusted to deal with world destroying threats (and ultimatly trusted by the inquisitor to be able to kill the Inquisitor before she could become a Daemon) in the next campaign one of them will be an inquisitor assigned to lead a 5 year mission to explore new worlds, meet new species and decide if they are to be destroyed so It is difficult not to allow them access to the good stuff.

(End of last game 1 Heavy Plasma Gun, 1 Plasma Gun, numerous bolt weapons, a melta pistol, power weapons and a force sword)

I was looking to see if anyone else had problems with the system , apparently not (arguements that the current system works perfectly are clearly not going to convince me or I would not have been looking for alternatives). So its write my own or convert to a better game mechanic system which would be even more work.

Oh I understand, but there comes a level where the PCs are fairly decently equipped, but you want to send human (and decently equipped) NPCs in combat and well, prevent them from being looted/gear sold. Like private mercs for some powerful figure (Noble, Rogue Trader, etc.) could have carapace, hellguns and so on.

never had a problem with players looting in Dark Heresy, they take the view that they are agents of in Inquisition and should behave properly it may help that I do not bother with money in Dark Heresy

After reading all the posts on this particular topic here and my own issues with the standard rules reguarding armour and penetration values ive long since altered the rules to suit myself and my groups perspectives on it. Which are as follows..

1) Hard armours like carapace or power armour etc will stop ALL damage dealt by ANY weapon that fails to have a Pen value equal to or greater than the armours AP itself…ricochetting away off the armour with only cosometic damage done or perhaps leaving a nasty dent etc..

Example: A ganger scum is using a stub revolver…Pen: 0 against a Arbite wearing their speciality Arbites plate armour…the scum shoots 3 times hitting the arbite each time…but doing a total of ZERO damage…because the hard plates of the armour simply cause the stub revolvers rounds to bounce away harmlessly…Same scenario now only the arbite is wearing a bodyglove underneath his street clothes ( AP 3 if i remember right ) …the scum shoots 3 times again as before and hits all 3 times..only now the arbite must test toughness against each of the 3 shots as each one can cause serious damage to them ( broken bones, deflated lungs, etc..all the usual potentials from a gunshot ) After the bodygloce "soaks" the first 3 points of damage from each shot the arbite tests toughness bonus against each remaning rounds damage ( say the arbite has a T bonus of 4 ) so between the armour and toughness the arbite can soak a total of 7 points from each round hes hit by…the remaining 1-3points if any from each will take off his wounds..and any critical hit chance is doubled effectively to represent the more serious threat of firearms against any cloth based armour I personally only allow the toughness bonus ONE time in each round..I do NOT allow the bonus to be split between attacks that hit the PC..That makes combat that can penetrate your armour that much more lethal and gives more pause for everyone making them invest in dodge/parry skills etc to enhance their survival as well as making them think more preventing a simple hack and slash.

All cloth armours will "soak" their AP value in damage from any/all incoming attacks and anything more is transfered to the NPC/PC for toughness soak then final damage as normal…BUT…anytime your hit your risking other damage of a more critical nature with cloth armours…like getting slammed with a great warhammer for instance..yes the cloth armour would soak the X points of damage BUT..your ribs arm etc are still gonna most likely get pulverized…youll just be a good looking corpse instead of a bloody mess thats ALL…ONLY hard plate armours ( carapace and up etc ) will prevent potential critical damage from impacts like that ( making melee combat in cloth armours much more lethal than normal as well as adding some realism to it for those like myself and my group that enjoy the thoughts behind things and thinking of ways to get around opponents as often as going shooty shooty hack and slash to fix the problem..lol )

2) Specialty armour like flak still treat their value as normal against X rated blast damage etc ( doubling the coverage for armour "soak" ability to keep the wearer relatively safe..however ONLY fully enclosed power armour will allow you to survive being caught in the blast radius of a missile or grenade ( due to concussive force and the inherent Rending/tearing damage from being in a blast wake in reality ) at minimum if not in sealed armour and caught in blast area the PC/NPC WILL be deafened ( test against toughness at -10 for grenade and -30 for missile etc ) or be permanently deafened due to inner ear damage..and as always they will be totally stunned for X number of rounds afterwards even if they survive..unless in sealed armour like power armour..anything less..WONT cover it sorry…

I do not like the "immune to damage" approach to armour.

To quote one of the best movies of all time:

Himmel: You'd have to shoot me first.
[Gustav shoots Himmel]
Chubby: I can't believe you shot him.
Gustav: Ah, he's wearing a bulletproof vest.
Himmel: Doesn't mean it doesn't hurt.

It particularly doesn't work when Armour is quite abstract, like in 40k rpg. There would be no way to bypass that, which is inherently unrealistic as armour has weak points, and is also not fitting with the background (lasguns do kill Space Marines, just not that often). The ratings given for armour and the variable damage for the weapons abstracts both the protective qualities of the armour, which will vary, even within the same hit location, and the chance of random effects leading to penetrations (weak points in the armour, lucky angles of attack that find gaps or allow the weapon to penetrate etc).

Thats what you have the critical success for…to overrule the standard hit rules with that "lucky shot" that gets through the ***** in the armour or other simple weak spot. and as for any of the softer cloth based armours..they do allow for ( and i always account for ) potential other blunt force criticals…as mentioned above about it still hurting like a b*tch when you get shot even when your wearing armour..for soft armours that is true..but not for plate armour as it will either be stopped cold or ricochette away to hit some other poor unlucky fool..lol…unless they are using AP ammo in which case i still allow the damage to get in and make a toughness check..this approach makes armours and their protective values and natures more realistic..some armours just do better against certain things than others do..

The critical success on the hit roll ( i do NOT use the hit location chart included with the game!..ALL hits are taken as center mass aka bodyshots UNLESS you make a called shot ) will always get through some "*****" or "weak spot" in any armour…as it should which means that no one is truly totally safe against anyone because there is always a margin for success…

So quick question here, if I use the Navel Shield from the IH, that has a AP 8, Will I ignore all damage if no weapon has a high enough pen. to by pass the AP 8 then?

(seeing as the Navel shield is a primitve weapon but seeing as it's platsteel I would assume that it isn't primative armor though. )

And if not, why not?

I assume you mean Nav A l shield, and not one that just protects your belly button

First off..kudos darth…that did have me lmao…secondly and the reason for this post..to Phi That is correct…having actually had to weild a real full sized tower shield ( not the normal kind employed by police for more civil duties ..but the actual 35-40lb solid construction stop a 12ga slug at under 30ft style )..and yes they are real…called over 1/2 inch thick lexan bulletproof plexi..the kind used for armor plating vehicle windows. I would and do take it that they have some materials similar to that since this AP is comparable to your high end power armours…we can assume they would make some shields out of the same material..it does afterall make perfect sense..getting the same level of potential coverage at a fraction the cost of a full suit and used only in the area you tend to need it for..IE upfront facing enemy…

However..some obvious exceptions would be explosives…and other area denial weapons like flamers etc…but against regular ballistic weapons or such ( anything short of plasma weaponry ) yes id say it has to have sufficient AP to penetrate..that OR..in event of critical hit or the ammo in question having the AP trait i would say that in that event the round would do at least the 8 points of damage and anything over the 8 points..was taken as hitting the target through the shield and that damage resolved as normal…

In the case of AP ammo..i allow for penetration to occur if the round does at least whatever the AP value of the targets armour to be..

Example: Npc using normal stub revolver normal ammo load…shoots PC wearing AP3 …the armour is soft armour..so the NPC hits…dealing 1d10 damage..well say 10 points for this to make it easy for counting…BUT..the AP of the armour is 3..and the ammo has no Pen value..no armour penetration quality…soo..the round is blunted by the AP3 armour ..however…i take it as the 7 points ( 10 rolled - AP3 = 7 ) affects the PC in the form of blunt force damage ( anyone ever wearing kevlar vests minus the trauma plate and even sometimes with it will know ) ..it still hurts like a MF..easily winding or stunning you depending on how hard it hits…IE broken rib vs dead…i always take the AP value off the total damage rolled before considering the after effects of the shot …In the case of hard plate armours however there is no stun shot * unless perhaps a good solid headshot that tests the AP value of the helmet good…nice ring your gong sort of hit *

Now same example only the NPC is using AP ammo that give the hit a Pen value…Now i take the difference between the Pen value and the AP ( say Pen 2 but AP of 3 and total damage roll of 10 again….thats a total of 9 points that make it through the armour….the armours AP 3 - Pen of 2 = 1 point removed from total leaving 9 …

I dont exactly follow the AP vs Pen table per se since it doesnt fit well with the style of more realistic play we tend to use in my groups….Ultimately however you can use GM perrogative and adapt/modify/rewrite/omit whatever you feel best to suit yours and your players needs to make the game more fun for the group…

my bad, yes. LOL Could you imagine.

So Andrewmoreton, if that is your REAL name, it seems that there are two questions being asked here:

1) What to do when one group has access to the highest pen weapons that ignores all the armour in the game.

Well simple answer is not much these weapons should be able to take out armoured vehichles (they can't). You could start having the badguys not wear armour if it's pointless but that's just going to make them vulnerable to everything AND the plasma gun. So do the following

Take solace in the fact that having all that armour means that if they get bonuses to it, like being in cover (keep them cover for Emperors sake) or psychic powers then that should equal enough to make a difference.

Do what they do in the table top, any character worth his salt doesn't leave the house without an invulnerable save. So your NPC's are going to need force feilds and stuff now.

Also sounds like it's time to up the ante, you only need to glance at some DW baddies and your poor characters will be agast at how much TB and wounds something can have even when the armour is negated

2) Decent pen weapons mean that even when the armour has some left it's often insignification compared to the damage. This has come up before and to a degree I agree. Once you get to 4 pen even the best armour available only takes an additional 4 off the attack and damage rolls get pretty high.

So house rules, A double remaining armour after pen is taken off. That's going to quickly mess up the results suddenly you are taking 8 armour + TB off your bolter hits, which is fair enough considering how much that armour costs and how much damage bolters throw out.

Or add some a quick save throw, adding another roll slows stuff down so be wary. But essentially after removing the pen treat the remaining armour points like a save, roll 1d10 and get equal to or under the amount to ignore all damage. E.g. power armour (av 8) vs bolter (pen 4), 4 left so a roll of 4 or less ignores that hit. You could do it before rolling to damage and that would save some time (and they don't WANT to know that that dice rolled two 10's in a row and is getting ignored).