Ok so basically to start I have had horrible examples for gm's. First one was making rules up all over the place, and did things that space marines would never do such as using xenos tech to better themselfs. Second one was like, here basic rules. Now lets make everything super op and ruin the game.

Now I tried to do my campaign. But I screwed up and let them level way too fast and baically they killed everything that moved on my campaign. Mostly the 2 psykers on the team. They got to the point where it was impossible to kill them because they blew up everything and unless I went rediculously cheap mode then I would just get yelled at. They ALWAYS pushed like out of 30 cast they didnt push 1. Summoned 2 demons and mostly the only ones that ever got hurt from it were teammates with bad willpower. I had this important story plot of a blood angel rank 8 joining them to make sure they finished it, turned out he had fallen to chaos and had gained pskyer abilites so he betrayed them in the end. After all the mission to get that set up I couldn't beat them with anything except him who I made stupidly powerful like psy rating of 14, straight 90 stats etc. So how do I balance out all this.

Questions

1. How much expereience should I give GENERALLY per mission? I've been giving like 3k ish a mission. Too much? Little?

2. How long should a mission last on average, mine were sometimes upward of like 8 hours easy. I doubt any mission should be that long but you never know.

3. How do I balance out psykers on the team? Most enemies explode on contact with them and they even outrange them.

4. What should the psyker ration on a team be allowed? With bascially 10 players I allowed 2 psykers but felt too overpowered.

5. What are good enemies and numbers of enemies to throw at a squad at early levels? I'll have like 6-8 people this go around for gming and I'd like to know.

I'll think of more questions soon but these are what I have now

Hadesdrew said:

Welcome to the mixed horror and joy that comes from Deathwatch. It's pretty late where I am - stuck at work - so I apologise if I descend into mad ramblings. I'll try to make sense though.

1.) I tend to award via session, rather than via mission. On average I hand out 400-500xp per session, depending on how much fun I had. So far this has kept levelling to a fairly reasonable rate.

2.) The missions I run tend to stretch over 3-4 sessions of about 4 hours apiece. I've found that this gives a good amount of time for a three part narrative as well as allownig for some larger combats.

3.) To truly balance psykers? Go the Black Templar route and burn them while they're not a threat to you. Sadly, the librarian is the win button. I've considered a couple of possibilities, such as requiring Fate point expenditure to push a power. Don't be afraid to use anti-psyker stuff - that Eldar Farseer is going to be able t shut that librarian down hard; that Hive Tyrant is going to make psychic powers almost useless. If they get in your grille about it, don't be hesitant to point out that they blow **** up which detracts from the other players enjoyment of the game.

4.) One. More than one is asking for trouble in almost any game. That being said, I'm not entirely sure I like the idea of Librarian character at all - in future games I run, people wanting to be a psyker will be required to come up with a mortal character (most likely an inquisitor)

5.) This is hard to say without really knowing your group. I've found that throwing in a couple of different hordes, a couple of interesting individuals that might give a horde a special rule or make them unbreakable until they're taken down (a demagogue that's screaming orders to the mob; an Ork that stands heads and shoulders above the rest and carries a massive banner), and something that takes a little thought to deal with (a tank; a bunch of civilians - unarmed - that are being forced in front of the chaos cult as human shields; a daemonhost that is immune to all weapons that have tasted fire or ice in their construction) as well as a couple of elites.
reinforced by a number

First time posting, in my opinion i would look at the following

1. I tend to go a bit light on giving experience normal only giving it if it is earned, players role play well or do extra ordinary things. If they are just acting like a terminators trashing everything it tends to be on the low side. In one mission with some of the luckiest die rolls I have seen a dev kill a Carnifix buy himself in 2 turns, and it was only a bridging encounter. He is currently famous for his actions on that mission.

2. Mission length, it varies. my group has been on Patrol for nearly a year (we play one evening a week), with different missions, some lasting a single week, some lasting a 4 weeks. It depends how detailed you do the missions.

3. I do not balance the players (however, 10 is a large group. I would not go above 5 personally), they play what they like, in fact most of my players have 2 / 3 characters and choose them one mission at a time. All I do is balance the mission to match the players / team members. You could try splitting them up into smaller teams or individuals and attacking there weaknesses.

In your situation, however I would make it a role playing event. For example, on the campaign I run. In one mission there vessel was attacked by a Chao's (khorne) vessel, there vessel was destroyed, they had to do a roll off to escape the ship, if they role 3 1's they died, unfortunately one died ( and he had a great time describing his characters death) another one of my players sacrificed himself to save the navigator. Furthermore, I am never afraid to kill off characters if they died a hero's or noble death.

4. I tend to think of DW teams as a Veteran Squad / honour guard from 40k, Therefore, not normally more than one of each but it depends on the mission. In a meat grinder mission they had 3 devs, Apoc and Tactical in a fighting retreat from a nid horde. however I let my players decide.

5. It all depends on the mission, I have a campaign plan and a individual mission plan, it all depends on the situation the players find themselves in. If they are escorting an inquisitor, guarding a relic or cleanse and burn. They may find themselves alone, or having to work as a team. If they are raiding an orc fuel depot for example, going in guns blazing like a terminator, a few hordes of orc's / Gretchin, some burner's, individual nobz and a tough mek or boss and a turn limit until millions of others arrive due to the noise. However, they may choose to go in silently and take out the sentries one but one, might get discovered a race to kill a wandering creature and have a battle at the end to escape.

In the end I tend to have a story for the players to be involved with, I never consider beating them. I consider it successful if we end rolling on the floor in laughter or in awe of some uber heroics.

Hadesdrew said:

You can easily calculate that by the number of missions you require of the players to level 8. Every GM's preferences are different, I like slow progress.

Hadesdrew said:

Also very different. We play in detail and so it takes us 20+ hours for a mission.

Hadesdrew said:

The ugly truth is that the counter-balance to psy is Perils of the Warp. There is no other. Which in turn means that it's your free "I'm gonna mess with my players" card. If regular Daemon Princes are too easy, give them another Unnatural Toughness level (body of steel), an insta-kill daemon weapon and/or immunity to warp-based powers. DPs are a varied lot (if your players don't believe you, encourage them to find a copy of the original slaves to darkness sourcebook for warhammer) so you can go as wild as you want to. Now Total Party Kill without chance to avert it is bad style but… the higher the roll on Perils of the Warp, the more you need to mess with them. Naturally the players will call it unfair and plead for mercy. Don't. Perils of the Warp is the counter-balance and the sole counter-balance.

How do you know when you do it right? When the other players get upset everytime a psyker player even considers pushing psy. That's when you can lean back and smile, your job as GM being done well.

Hadesdrew said:

I have 2 psykers too among a pool of 9 or 10 players. It's powerful. If it's too powerful just ramp up the enemies from the missions a bit. I would allow all psyker kill-teams if the players wanted it. The opposition would look accordingly though. If necessary you can pit your PCs against an entire hive fleet, upwards scaling is no problem in DW. Just avoid a fantasy mindset, where you put 4 PCs against 8 or 16 orks. Throw 5000 Orks at your players. They are the Deathwatch, it's their job to find a way to handle them. There isn't such a thing as too many enemies for an Astartes, especially for the Deathwatch. So if the players complain, tell them to shut up and get the job done. Or at least die honourably.

Hadesdrew said:

As many as you want to, see above. Put them against 5000 Orks, 20 mag 50 hordes. Now they can't hope to win through raw dice mechanics anymore and suddenly the players need to be inventive. Support them if they come up with good plans. If they act unimaginative, grind their numbers down slowly but steadily in a bloody carnage. Either the remaining survivors will get the challenge (maybe a hint might be required at that stage) or they'll go down in a sea of green too.

As you can see: there is too few enemies in DW but never too much, so it's better to err on the side of the opposition. They are the Deathwatch, they are supposed to handle s**t. Makes the game pretty outstanding in comparison to other RPGs too.

Alex

Am I wrong here? Shouldn't summoning a Daemon Prince instantly kill the player that summoned it? It is possession after all, a daemon doesn't just "boop" into existence.

No, it boops into existence, 3d10 m from the psyker trying to kill him. Personally I'd modify that though if the DP thought the kill-team was too powerful. Maybe he tried to escape, maybe he has sucked some lesser daemons with him. Maybe he has additional mutations/powers.

Alex

Dispite what AK-47 said, there is such such thing as to many enemies. 8 Lictors are in the same fight vs a low level party is going to be too much. A single greatly demon vs a low level party is going to be too much. Also if your not sure if a fight is too hard or too easy go with too easy, you can also add reinforcements latter.

As for as XP goes, looks at the cost of advancements.. I would say 1000 as a starting point. More for good roleplaying, tactics your didn't see, or out of the box thinking.

On too psykers, yes they are powerful. I also would limit the sqaud to one. Not solely for power reasons but also because they take longer to run.

Powerwise, the biggest culprit is smite. Counting Psykers is tricky. It's hard to only mildly nerf them. If a devastator, you can make sure there is plenetly of cover, he can still shoot through it, but it will soak of some of his damage. Here is the thing if tamping down on one player(as opposed to a hard fight all around), make sure it's not crippling(dont use slannar warmarchines, unless your going to allow some real creaative use of powers), and or make sure there is something else the player in question can do.

To quote myself: "Now they can't hope to win through raw dice mechanics anymore and suddenly the players need to be inventive." That is usually the best kinds of fights. Fights were the players can reasonably hope to win through dice-rolling and survive as a whole are fun once in a while but not what I'd consider a thrilling tactical challenge.

Alex

There are some fights that can be overcome through tactical thinking. Then there are fights that players have virtually no chance of winning except through GM fiat.

Unholy_Ravager said:

That is the point. In fact it's the concept of a whole role-playing game (Paranoia RPG). You make a pitch for solution and the GM weighs the outcome; the challenge then is convincing a rightfully critical GM. For some gamers, RPGs are best when they foster creativity, unique or unusual solutions to problems where a solution isn't immediately apparent. Sometimes the best solution might be even "tactical redeployment". Having the eye measure to know when to withdraw might be part of the fun challenge. And a fighting withdrawal might be really fun too. There might be 5000 Orks approaching but there's that old destroyed imperial chapel 1.2 kms south of the players position and depending on its condition it might be possible to bunker up there, survive for the moment and devise a plan how to deal with the rest of the Orks. Even that withdrawal might be epic, how much more the siege that follows.

I maintain: there is no such thing as too much opposition in Deathwatch. You are Astartes, you are the Deathwatch, go and find a way to deal with whatever comes along. You have the tools, you have the training, do it. Failure is not an option.

Alex

That fine for you to think so, but I maintain it's easily possible to over do it.

Hadesdrew said:

1. I like slow progress during the missions so I generally give around 350-600 xp per mission.

2. I have had my last missions run out around 8 hours each. At the first few games we usually had one session of 8 hours just to plan the mission, equip the team and so on and a second session which started when they exited the Thunderhawk.

3. You don't. Neither do you balance the heavy bolters. Or, for that matter a good few tactical marines with bolters. Or a n assault one with dual power swords. I've had my players do all this and basically, as it is now, they can kill ANYTHING I throw at them in one turn. The only thing you can do to balance it is by having enemies that outrange them or enemies that outnumber them hugely.

4. Well, one is enough for any team, really, but having two won't break the system any more than having two devastators or two fine-tuned assault marines will.

5. Go overboard. Seriously. I have nine players (ranks 2 mostly) and last time I hit them with waves of hordes with twenty maginitude 20 hordes in each. Thats 400 magintudes per wave. They seemed to have very little problem with them except for the fact that the shooters started to run a bit low in ammunition.

Even rank 1 Astartes are combat monsters of the first degree. They are VERY hard to kill unless you have railgun sniping at them from 1000 meters and will kill pretty much any monster that they can get their sights on. Treat them as such. Its easier to throw too much enemies at them and then "fudge a bit" by having enemies purposefully doing stupid things or just retreating if it starts to look like you might be killing off the whole party without meaning it… Besides, its more heroic and probably more satisfying for the players if their characters pull through what looks like hopeless odds than if they just casually slaughter everything they come across.

1. 3000 is way too much. That's experience for single handedly killing a buffed Daemon Prince, or saving the whole team while their unconscious and you've lost a limb. I abide by the maxim that I should be giving out roughly 800xp every 4 hours - I play 2 hr sessions cause I lead a busy life.

2. I've designed 4 hr missions, and played them, and 16 hr missions, and played them. Both are good. Mix it up a bit - don't let the length be predictable. Also don't make it too long unless it's big. Spending 16 hrs holding off a tyranid assault while searching for a xenos-worshipping apostate cardinal and dealing with potentially traitorous imperial guard, and maybe some sneaky eldar and/or tau is a lot more fun than spending 16 hrs doing something simple. Let the long ones be really complex. That'll extend the length by itself often.

3. You can't really. The only way to do it is to send them up against anti-psyker foes. So for example if your librarians love Compel (which mine does) send them up against machines, who can't be affected by mind bending powers. Shadow in the Warp 'nids are good for this. But make them rare - that way they'll get used to their awesome powers, and when they meet an anti-psyker enemy they'll have to rethink.

4. No idea. Doesn't matter - change the missions to make things more challenging.

5. As many as possible. With non-errata weapon stats I found my team able to breeze through a Tau Strike Force of three broadside battlesuits, a kroot carnivore horde with magnitude 40, two hordes of fire warriors of the same magnitude, three markerlight drones, and two shield drones. Next time I'm going to have seven hordes. Seven. As Hades said, better to overdo it then fudge than underdo it. And if you have two Librarians, you should have almost every horde with a magnitude of over 60. Make the number of elites in any given battle equal, or be greater than, the number of marines. Also, buff any masters they go against. 10 marines will cut through a Hive Tyrant like a chainsword through butter.

Polaria said:

A reasonably sized Horde of Ork Boyz or Tau Fire Warriors can kill a Rank 1 character in one Round without too much trying.

Ork Horde Magnitude 30, does 4d10+7 Pen 2 damage. Two effectve attacks due to Furious Assault. Let's say both hit an Astartes with TB8 in the arm arnour AP8. Average 29 damage.29 - TB8 - AP6= 12 x 2 = 24. The Astartes takes 24 Wounds. OK he's not dead yet but probably in crits and will be killed next round.

bogi_khaosa said:

If I remember rules correctly there is limit of 2 dice to damage bonuses Hordes get, so magintude 30 horde doesn't do 4d10+7 but 3d10+7. And they don't really hit 100% of the time. More like 30%. The average of 3d10+7 is 25 point of damage with pen 2. Against a typical marine this will easily drop down to maybe 5 to 7 points. And it ONLY happens like this if they ever get into close combat range to begin with. Which is a big IF. Tau Fire Warriors are a *****, though.

Anyway, I always rather use multiple sets of hordes of 20 or so than a single horde of 60+. The problem with big hordes of big weapons is that it really breaks down to system as you can't dodge the horde attacks. So it goes basically down to "Roll to hit, if it hits, you burn a fate point"

Polaria said:

Orks Boyz have Overwhelming (as do Hormagaunts), so they roll four dice.

BTW those Kindred Kroot in Rising Tempest are brutal. For some reason, their blades do more damage than power swords, I expect them to do a number on my marines,