Greetings, brethern

I am still not quiet at terms with the actuall (Errata 2.0) rules for two weapon wielding. Especially when we are talking about "two pistoles capable of semi-auto/full auto".

Please tell me your experiences with it and what (if any) house rules you use. Thank you!

It works well, perhaps too well:

Just think of the Gunmetal Gunslinger with two auto pistol and the following talent:

* Ambidextrous
* Gunslinger
* Two Weapon Wielder (Ballistic)

Say the guy has a basic BS of 40 (not unreasonable because of the additional +5BS)

If the character would be at close range (<15meters) he would gain an additional +10BS

So he gets to roll BS 70% twice, just imagen if he would roll <10 twice, that would be 12 hits of 1d10+2

100xp down the line that could be 1d10+4 (Might shot)

GrtZ,

Santiago...

Much as I LOVED the Inquisitor's Handbook, I have to say some of the alternate career ranks were a little unbalancing (if you're of the school of thought where that matters), because they gave everything to a character at once, and kind of too soon. I don't really have a problem with the build Santiago described, I just have a problem with it being available to someone at rank 1. I feel the same way about Templar Calix (even though it can't be taken at rank 1)

None of my players have taken any of the packages I find troubling, but if they had, I probably would have instituted house rules about how soon they could take certain advances.

The only seriously unbalancing alternate rank that I saw is one that screws you over pretty hard in the long run, so I'm not too concerned about it. Granted, though, I am mildly concerned about the Xeno Scholar (I can't remember the actual name), not so much for amount that it gives so much as for giving a lot of out-of-the-way heretical knowledge, but then again that one also has a certain amount of "weaving the rope to hang yourself" as well. Most of the others range from non-issue to moderate.

May I guide the attention of the attendies back to topic? The impacts of the different IH benefits are sure worth a discussion...but please in another topic

Thank you

@Santiago
So, how this is gunslinger in your group performing in a longer combat? Or is he in fact cutting any combat short?

I've got an assassin with both dual weild pistol and melee weapons, I think overall the melee side of it tends to be a lot more effective. But read the errata carefully so you know where your points are going and what it will net you.

About the only reason I'd have two guns out would be to avoid reloading for longer and in case one of them jams, I personally know how dumb trying to shoot two pistols is, its mostly just a very noisy way of blowing off a lot of ammo without hitting anything and I'm not quite ready to make DH a complete Hollywood **** just yet. Besides, the assassin is a serious, professional killer and not the average scummy punk who's managed to cobble enough bob together for a couple of guns, if she's going to kill someone, she'll aim and blow their head off with one or two shots expediently as possible and then scamper off somewhere out of sight.

Bolt pistol and Chainsword is just sheer carnage, if you have to slaughter a room full of arseholes it works quite well, no one wants to be near the whirring blade of death and they can't really run away because they'll just get shot in the back or slip over in someone's entrails...

Gregorius21778 said:

It was fun to see a 500xp character hold off and almost killing Five 1500-1800xp characters

Gunslinger
BS 45%
Ag 40%

Ambidextrous
Gunslinger (300xp)
Mighty Shot (100xp)
Two Weapon Wielder (100xp)

2 Autopistols
Man-Stopper Rounds

5 PC's who thought they were face a Space Marine equivalent gunslinger...

I like my PC's on the strong side but this was insane...better was the look on their faces when they found out he had 1/16th they xp they had in total!!!

On topic, it work well, perhaps a bit too much...

I don't know. If they were still up and at-em when the smoke cleared then obviously you weren't scoring killing hits. The fact that none of them thought to huck a molotov cocktail or its equivalent at you is odd, since that certainly would've taken some wind from your sails. Hell, this is the reason grenades are issued to soldiers in the first place. It looks more like what you had was a stand-off. Or perhaps a group of NPCs not being played especially effectively.

Pneumonica said:

Nopes, just some very paranoid pc's and a well positioned gunner...

@Gregorius

Apologies if my attempt to answer your question wasn't clearer. What I was trying to communicate is that I think 2 weapon ballistic and associated talents works just fine as long as it is restricted to higher levels where other classes are get equivalently cool things. So I do not house rule the talent's function itself, but I do house rule how soon it is available.

Taking a leaf from D&D where two-weapon-wielders are usually facing the same difficulty: Your pistolero will generally wish for a Heavy Bolter when he goes up against enemies with a high resistance to damage - 12 times 1D10+4 is not the same as 12D10+48 when the enemy has 14 points of damage reduction due to a combination of high Toughness, Daemonic, Unnatural Toughness and lots of armour. And looking through the pages of the Disciples I hardly find a chapter that hasn't got one of those...

@Pneumonica

The only seriously unbalancing alternate rank that I saw is one that screws you over pretty hard in the long run, so I'm not too concerned about it.

Which one would that be?

recoil gloves and 2 boltguns

I think I just threw up a little Action_Carl, imagine the carnage...

Cifer said:

May I guide the attention of the attendies back to topic , please? I am sure the "alternate ranks in IH" are worth a debate. But if you intended to start a discussion about it, please do so under a different topic.

May I guide your eyes to the section of the post above the one you quoted which is precisely on topic? I'm expecting a one or two sentence reply from Pneumonica and don't consider this worth a whole new thread. In fact, our exchange about the on-topic-ness of the whole thing is most likely already longer than the exchange about the rank would have been.

In a normal forum, I'd just have PMed him, but guess what common function available to pretty much every message board I know is missing from this one...

Ive had experience with just the thing ive seen the man roll it and get righteous fury 3 times on each of the rolls...he a daemonslayer with guns pretty much and personaly the gunslinger calss in my opinion is overpowered just for that. i never get a chance to hit anything when its his turn always first due to wary and i hate that he kills everything in 5 secods of a fight. my experience therefore is bad

Again, enemies keeping their heads down and throwing molotov cocktails or grenades would make the gunslinger less useful (not useless). Fast-moving close-in warriors will have to go in, because the gunslinger will be forced out into the open if others don't put pressure on the hidden soldiers.

Also, don't forget long-distance fighting - an autopistol has 30m range. Assume a fight over 100 metres: The guy with the lasgun is still firing at a normal distance while our gunslinger already is on extreme range for a pretty -30 penalty to every shot.

@thenDoctor

A +1 to initiative makes him go "always first"?And three righteous furies are hardly statistically normal...

From the sounds of it the GM isn't applying modifers to make things hard if such a character is dominating a situation.

You get a modifier for two weapons, you get modifiers for cover, darkness, movement, fatigue... its a very long list which takes a lot of the sting out of people blowing off ammo. NPC's may be plebs, but unless theyre Fearless they dont actually want to die and do their very best to avoid such an eventuality, they do things like bugger off and regroup in a position more to their favour if they take a beating.

PC's tend to be thick as pig sh*t and will in a lot of cases go charging after them thinking they're on the run.

That's when you use the det-packs and turns into...

It might also be interesting to turn the tides on the PCs. Use their tactics against them, and then consider how they reply to it. Indeed, they might think of something all of us missed, and then you get your countertactic. ^^

I know this is a bit of thread necromancy, but I figured I might as well not start a new thread.

I am playing a pretty optimized gunslinger scum in our current campaign, and I have done tremendous amounts of damage. Generally speaking I expect to drop any goon (or two) with one round of shooting my regular boltpistols. When shooting at anyting with unnatural toughness I used dual shot. I just got access to kraken penetrator rounds, (we are at around 7000 xp) so my BPs ignores 7 points of armour. This have actually worked so good that we decided to leave the gunslinger out of our future campaigns, together with the jedi-wannabe and the mechanicus secutor. This sunday we are going to have the big final epic battle, probably involving chaos spacemarines, demons and other horrible things.

Example: around lvl 4: Standard boltpistols, red dot sights, dual shot, all the relevant talents(TWW, gunslinger, ambidextrous, Marksman, Dual shot, mighty shot, sharpshooter, etc). BS: 45.

A dual shot: BS45, red dot +10. Thats 55% chance to hit, up to 120m. Add bonuses for short range, aiming etc etc.

A hit will do 2x(1d10 tearing + 5+2 - (armour - 4)) - toughness bonus. 1d10 tearing averages around 7, and has a 19% chance of fury (wich gives around 35% chance to get at least one fury on a double shot) but I'll disregard that for now.

A hit on a chaos spacemarine with TB5 (unnatural x2) and power armour (armour 8) will average: 2x(7+7 - (8-4)) - 10 = 10 points of damage (16 with kraken rounds). Compare to an autocannon that averages 13 points of damage per hit on a spacemarine, also with around 35% chance of a fury. One good thing is that it is very reliable damage. Good chance to hit, many dice rolled and overcomes unnatural toughness reliably.

With quickdraw, quickload, a pair of manstopper loaded hecuters (or regular autopistols) and a pair of handflamers you hardly ever have to waste your costly boltammo on goons, or your time reloading. A dualshot hack shotgun to the face is my solution to melee-type situations. Of course I would love to get my hands on two inferno pistols. Dualshooting them means instant kills on most everything up to and including major daemons (average damage 32, ignores all known armour, 35% chance of fury).

All in all, my experience is that balistic two weapon wielder is a very nasty combat monster. It was fun to play it and to cheese it out, but I'm really looking forward to the next campaign where I'll play my very benign, social and thoughtful cleric.

When we play, we dont use any house rules. we just play the way the game was designed...

Anyway ive played as a metallican Gunslinger scum in the past and it was the coolest character I have ever played. Not overpowered in my opinion. He was poor as hell, and spent any throne he had on ammo. and if it wasnt for a high agility and dodge heavily invested in, he could probobly die in a hit or two ^-^ but run up in close combat with someone, and its lights out for them^-^ I admit that at rank 2, he was a beast! but as the rest of the party advanced, all he really did was save up his thrones to get better guns.

that and he had a BS of 50 not including his red dot sights! >.<

What your gunslinger needed was a sugardaddy noble with loads of money and good trading contacts (=huge bonuses on finding rare items and reduction in cost).

As for "the way the game was designed". I really don't like that argument, mostly because I believe noone gets to tell me how I have the most fun. I pay for the inspiration that I can get from a sourcebook, then I do with that inspiration what I want. Secondly I don't think this game was designed by autistic enough powergamers to be "balanced" in the perspective of a conflict game, and I don't think it was really intended to be. Just look at the possible brokenness of an optimized Templar Calix. So in order to keep combat challenging on a tactical level, while keeping most characters able to contribute in the combat, my gaming group needed to houserule a little here and there. The system is however more than adequate for playing campaigns where the telling of the story and the experience of the 40k world are the central points, as long as you houserule or wing it on a few occasions (Tech Use vs Lore (tech), for example). And I am really looking forward to play such a campaign now.