Contrary to the other posters, I'll say that it is perfectly fine for a Moritat Assassin to be a psyker and use a force sword. For one, there are exactly zero sources of fluff that suggest the Moritat, or even Death Cults in general, hate psykers. When no members of a group can be psykers, the career rank says so – for example, with the Sister careers. The Moritat have no such restriction.

Furthermore, as to a force sword leading to fame and people hunting you – you're an assassin, and force swords don't look any different from any other kind of sword to people who aren't familiar with them. What people will see is that you stab people and they die, which while impressive is not altogether unusual. Thus you'll be no more famous or hunted than any other assassin.

In short, yes, you may be a psychic Moritat Assassin with a force sword. It isn't even worth vetoing on the grounds of power level, as its not that powerful a combo in the first place; you'll be just like a normal assassin but with a few risky tricks and a psy rating of 1 (there isn't any way for an assassin to get a psy rating of 2 before Ascention, at which point power levels cease to matter anyway, except for elite advances which are always GM's discretion).

The average Imperial citizen is taught to fear and hate the witch, and one of the Moritat Reaper's available talents is Hatred (Psykers). So Death Cultists are taught to hate psykers, and can and do take it to heart just like a zealous Redemptionist cleric or a Battle Sister. While Sisters can't gain psychic abilities (Denounced and Condemned notwithstanding), I'm fairly certain that a Cleric of any kind who manifests psychic powers is going to have a lot to answer for.

Killing someone with a sword is not that unusual, but it does become unusual when the sword suddenly glows blue or crackles with otherworldly energy just before the strike, especially without the tell-tale wires and conduits that a power sword has. And a sword covered in funny-looking runes is going to raise an eyebrow at the very least. Not to mention, force swords can generally only be obtained from the Holy Ordos, who will wonder just why a non-psyker would want one in the first place. "It's a gift for someone" isn't going to fly with them.

So as I said earlier, I'd let someone play a psyker Moritat, but they'd be expelled from the order and would not be allowed to become a Reaper. The only reason they're still alive is because the Inquisition thought they were too important to simply let die, otherwise their fellow Moritat would have either killed him or forced him to commit ritual suicide to cleanse him of his taint. Even if cast out, they could still hold onto the cult's tenets, even if they are no longer officially part of the cult; old habits die hard. So they would not lose the Bloody Edge unless they choose to abandon the cult's teachings as well.

Of course, there's also the added risk of losing control of your powers and becoming a daemonhost. And a daemonhost with a force weapon is a scary idea indeed.

Death Cults are FANATICAL, they take the Imperial Creed to the extreme. Look at Red Remdemptionists for an idea of extra-fanatical clerics, death cults are around there, if not a bit more. That said though, individual death cultists (in an acolyte cell), may not kill the "Witch" in the party on sight, but still would kill any unsanctioned psyker in sight (like any faith following member of the creed would/should). And while some careers have certain restrictions, a faithful imperial servant who follows the creed strictly might just off themselves if they are "tainted"

And on Force Swords, from Lexicanum:

Force weapons take the form of swords, spears or other close combat weapons. Within the structure of the weapon is interwoven a powerful psi-convector, formed into a precise serpentine shape which concentrates and directs psychic energy. This sometimes appears as a pattern on the blade. If a non-psyker takes up such a weapon it functions as a standard weapon.

They DO look different and someone who knows about such things would easily see the difference and even the folks that don't would see that they are not your normal weapon, ESPECIALLY if a psyker is using it.

On the other note, it may not be especially powerful for how hard it is to earn psy ratings as a non-psyker class (with the late game exception of adept). Wyrdling (Minor Mutation, Psy Rating 1) and Ordo Sicarius Operative (Psy Rating 1, Alt Rank), it seems almost pointless to try and do a low-powered fluff breaking move like that. Especially when there already exists a martial force sword wielding class (Templar Calix), which CAN use it

"Killing someone with a sword is not that unusual, but it does become unusual when the sword suddenly glows blue or crackles with otherworldly energy just before the strike, especially without the tell-tale wires and conduits that a power sword has. And a sword covered in funny-looking runes is going to raise an eyebrow at the very least. Not to mention, force swords can generally only be obtained from the Holy Ordos, who will wonder just why a non-psyker would want one in the first place."

First off, there is no indication in any piece of fluff that force weapons crackle with energy. Furthermore, if it is the wires and conduits that put people at ease, you can easily just place a few of them on as a cosmetic feature. along with a purity seal for good measure. Finally, a force weapon does not have any runes, it merely has a pattern on the blade (notably only sometimes, which suggests that other times there is no pattern at all ) , which in itself is not unusual. A person who is familiar with force weapons might identify it, however, the very fact that they are unusual means that there are likely two groups that might identify them: your comrades in the Inquisition, who would already know this as you wouldn't be hiding from them, and your target, who is soon going to die. Its not like you're parading in an open square waving around your unsheathed weapon, which could look like a perfectly ordinary sword anyway.

Finally, a force weapon is not generally obtained from the Holy Ordos – each member of an order of psykers, the Templars Calix, all have force weapons of their own. It is indicated that they not only obtain them from others — they also construct them themselves. "It is a gift from someone" might not fly, but "I helped a guy make it for me" easily would, and would be commendable.

Also, "wonder why a non-psyker"? Who says they would hide it from their superiors? In fact, one of the ways to gain psychic power as an assassin is specifically by being trained by the Holy Ordos (see, for example, the Ordo Sicarius rank), and it would be a mite odd if they at that point would be ignorant of the psychic abilities they taught you to use themselves.

Finally, the very comparison to the Cult of the Red Redemption shows that the Moritat are not like them in rebuking psykers from their ranks. Both cults are from the same book. The Red Redemption specifically indicates that psykers are barred from entry, right on the second paragraph of page 89. The Moritat, on the other hand, have no such restriction. If the Moritat were as fanatically opposed to psykers as the Redemption, it would be mentioned, especially considering both cults were written into the game by the same author.

Death Cults are fanatical — however, this means many different things. What makes Death Cults fanatics is that they believe unusual things very strongly, and they kill people. Like all other branches of the Imperial Creed their actual teachings vary, and whether they refuse psykers from their ranks is one of them. That Hatred (Psykers) is on their advance list does not indicate that they refuse psykers, either — the Firebrands, Hereticus Retinue, and Sanction Wardens cell directives all have Hatred (Psykers) on their advance list, and yet psykers are often members of a Witch Hunter's retinue and you are specifically barred from forming a Sanction Warden cell unless there is at least one psyker in it.

All this goes to show that there is zero reason to believe the Moritat will revoke membership if a person is discovered a psyker except in your own imaginations, and that if a player wishes to play one there is no actual fluff being broken at all and refusing it would be 100% arbitrary, and in doing so you would essentially be refusing a good, canonically viable concept based on nothing but your own whim.

Elijah Vladimirovich said:

Wrong. The official Fluff states that force weapons function the same way as power weapons to some degree. Where the power Sword uses the power field created by its own generator as a "layer" above the weapon to cut through anything the force weapon uses the psychic power of its wielder to create a similar "layer" that has in terms of cutting power nearly the same effect though it allows the psycher to suck the live out of his opponent. (And here the moritat wont get his tearing because of the same reason he does not get it with he power weapon)

You ask where I get this from? Official rulebooks of the tabletop, the black library novels and officialy painted miniatures of GamesWorkshop that show force weapons.

First off, there is the fact that the officially painted miniatures with force weapons, such as http://tiny.cc/bqgliw or http://tiny.cc/lrgliw or http://tiny.cc/ssgliw or http://tiny.cc/ktgliw or http://tiny.cc/hugliw , don't have any energy field painted on to them, which is no surprise as that would be impossible. Second, the fact that the tabletop rules have force weapons and power weapons having the same mechanical effect means nothing — the Eviscerator uses the same mechanics as a power fist, yet clearly they have distinct effects and thus function differently in the RPGs, just like Power Weapons and Force Weapons function very differently in the RPGs also. Finally, as to Black Library novels, to make sure, I went and checked, and lo and behold they don't work like power weapons there either (with the examples I'm referring to being Eisenhorn's force sword and force rod, to be specific).

So, basically, everything you just said is false.

In addition to the fluff, Dark Heresy's mechanics suggest that it is, in fact, the sword and not the energy field that is doing the work. For example, consider this: a Power Weapon's damage and penetration replaces the swords, upgrading the sword's edge (through it being a Mono or Lathe weapon for example) does nothing while the power field is on, because it is indeed the power field and not the sword doing the work. With force weapons, however, the extra damage and penetration is added on to what the base weapon has in its natural, held-by-a-non-psyker state. Furthermore, a power field changes the damage type from Rending to Energy, while a Force Sword's damage is Rending whether a psyker is wielding it or not.

I thought he had a null rod? Isn't that, like, the opposite of a force weapon?

First off, this isn't a discussion about whether Moritat get tearing to a force sword or not, that is not the scope of this discussion.

So far your argument breaks down to two items, one is because it is impossible to paint a force field that is dynamic (whether it be as overt as a power sword or somewhat subtler, like a force weapon), therefore force swords don't stick out?

The Other being that a fanatical death cult, which ARE like redemptionists in many ways (different of course, but the key factor they share is their fanaticism). Please read the fluff and information on death cults, they are insane fanaticals, the moritat are just one of the MANY cults, all whom go out of their way to kill those who are "impure".

And if I remember correctly, he had a Null Rod, which is the COMPLETE opposite of a force staff (it actually drives psykers insane being around it).

Also, ask the FFG staff about your problems, they are the best to give a ruling.

Being insane fanaticals, as I already mentioned, does not necessarily mean that they refuse psykers, and the fact that Redemptionists have that rule while Moritat do not itself shows that they do not behave towards psykers as Redemptionists do. I repeat, fanaticism does not equal what you think it does. You are painting Death Cultists as some homogeneous group that all share common beliefs, which is patently untrue. Some death cults are like Redemptionists, most aren't. Death cults vary from the insane to the methodic, from the Monodominant to the Khornate, from the feral to the noble, and everything in between and so on for all sorts of cults. And no, there is no indication that all Death Cults target or reject or fear psykers in particular. Some do, some don't, and the rules indicate that the Moritat do not.

Yes, I know that its impossible to paint energy fields, that's pretty much the reply I was making to the other guy, FieserMoep, who claimed that the official paint jobs do. Its not part of my argument, it is a counter-argument to the other guy's argument.

As for the rod, I don't think we're referring to the same weapon. The one I'm referring to is the one he's usually depicted carrying on his back, which is tipped with a skull. That one is a force weapon, they go into quite a bit of detail about it.

I'm actually not all that concerned about the force+tearing ruling, it was in reply to FieserMoep. What I find important here, and this is the clincher, is that you attribute to Death Cults in general and to the Moritat in particular beliefs that they do not have. This is much more important, and it is a bad habit to get into. The fluff, quite intentionally, is built for openness of ideas. The idea of a psychic Moritat death cult assassin is a cool one, a fun one, and one that is perfectly allowable by how the rules and the fluff actually portray death cults and psykers. That you are so quick to reject it, especially based on fluff that does not exist (namely, "death cults are like Redemptionists", which is not correct), is both bad for your games and a bad example to others.

Elijah Vladimirovich said:

I had to laugh so much… you are no tabletop player right? In fact you posted the pictures of activated force fields, thats ridiculous. xD

http://tiny.cc/lrgliw - The "thunder" is some artistic way to display an activated force weapon (or activated conduits), the others you posted are just deactivated. Long time ago there was an official guide for suggestions like how to paint several things just like force weapons.

And the picture about the furioso dreadnought, just switch to the librarian dreadnought (the blue one) and you will see his force weapon engulfed in a blue force field because it is activated.

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440192a&prodId=prod900150a

Its nice of you to give me prove that I am right.

Another nice example are the Grey Knights whose nemesis-force-weapons (Stronger but still force weapons) are constantly turned on, on official paintings:

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1160008a

And I am not discussing about the tabletop Rules of "DS2" (Which has in fact changed in the 6 edition to bring you up to date) I am talking about the fluff passages in the old Rulebooks and Codizes that discribe force weapons with a similiar effects like power weapons. And about the novels I can list the SM Battle Novels, the GK Novels and when I remember right the Space Wolves Novels. There are several passages where force weapon are discriped as channeling the raw powers of the warp to strike their foes and beeing something awe-inspiring to see on the battlefield.

And about the DH Rules I just look at them for the reason to resemble the strenght of a veteran psycer. It makes no sense to replace a force sword with a fixed weapon template like the power weapons (which are the same strong who ever wields them). For sure a force weapon has to add damage because this is the easiest way to discribe a weapon that grows proportinal in power or do you want 7 Versions of the same Weapon just for different psy ratings? And the fact that it is no "energy" damage is in my opinion just a big fault.

I know that such discussions will never end because the friggin amount of fluff we have about Warhammer with all its Rulebooks and Codizes (Older Editions too) and Novels. But for me, who read about glowing force weapons in the hands of librarians etc. this is a quite easy to answer topic.

Guys, in the interest of common sense I would like to humbly suggest that we all take it down a notch… Without blaming anybody, the personal attacks are not appropriate. This forum is a place where we can exchange ideas. We're all geeks here, and opinionated, but it's no fun for anyone else to read if it devolves into trying to prove everyone else wrong. Can we please chill? Thank you.

[in my stern teacher voice]

And I DON'T want to have to say this again. Are we clear?

In lieu of the arguments going on here, can I assume that it may be a good idea to petition Fantasy Flight Games to make a section in the Errata specifically for questions regarding the Moritat?

jabberwoky said:

Maybe this would be best, but I don't think it's necessary.

I know of no rules that prevent a Moritat Reaper from utilizing a Force Sword, psychic abilites and all. The game mechanics stand up to scrutiny and are not broken in any way. (that I'm aware) The story/fluff aspects of it are where the differences appear to come from, and those kinds of issues should be resolved at the local level. The GM has final say.

To that I would encourage GM's to allow Moritat's to attain psykic powers. Obtaining a Force Sword shouldn't be easy, but it should be an option. A forced "yes/no" isn't a good solution to this, and it's not necessary. Instead incorporate consequences.

The GM may decide to have the Moritat Reaper's choice of using psyker powers through the edge of a blade be fine with his superiors within the Moritat, but a different Moritat Reaper with a more "puritanical" bent on the oath decides to execute the player for abandoning the spirit of the oath (killing with the edge, not the psychic assault). In game terms there could be a recurring enemy, or a one-time assassination attempt. Or perhaps the Reaper's Inquisitor may be fine utilizing the new abilities of his acolyte, but a Monodominant Inquisitor may consider it dangerous and unethical.

We shouldn't get too far into the habit of refusing our player's choices. We should be providing consequences to them. Each GM will have a different opinion of what those consequences should be, and thus specific errata isn't essential.

EDIT: I'm always reticent to ask for official clarification on "fluff" issues. Too much clarification can turn into restriction, especially in a setting so rife with optional canon as the Warhammer 40k Universe.

Cymbel said:

I agree with you completely. The Moritat are fanatics, and the Witch is one of their slated enemies.

However, what you say doesn't entirely negate the possibility of playing one. You'd just be a rogue, hunted by your former Clade… and perhaps rise to prime recruiting material for the Officio Assassinorum.

Exactly, but just because your cult hates you, doesn't mean game over (unless you are a reaper, then they step it up as you are a rogue and know secret sacred knowledge…like how to do a Legend of Zelda Spin Attack)

Cymbel said:

I actually LOLed.

Moritat and Power Swords? That old thing again?

Anyway, mechanically, Force Swords and Force Axes are not only bladed implements, but ones that do rending damage, so every base is covered and points to "Yes, this is an edged weapon" which is the only prerequisite for The Bloody Edge . Primitive Melee Weapon Group Proficiency covers Force Weapons, so you're already fully proficient from the get-go, weather or not your character knows how to use the weapon's special properties is entirely a question of roleplaying and fluff, so, "whichever is cooler/more fun" is the answer I'm giving for that part.

As for the lore, the Moritat are clinically insane fanatics, they probably aren’t huge fans of Psykers because that's the normal, encouraged line of thinking for the rank and file of the Imperium, not to mention they get the Hatred: Psykers talent in their career. However, the career is not barred to Psykers, in the lore or in the mechanics, there is no mention of any kind of edged weapon being forbidden, and while the Moritat are experts at teaching you how to cut a dude with that there Force Sword, they probably wouldn't know the first thing about using the special properties.

And if you ever decide you want to use a Power Weapon, word of advice, friend; talk to your GM, use your best judgement and don't tell the internet what you decide, you'll have fewer grey hairs that way.