The Wither spell can be cast in any phase to gain +3 to combat checks. Is it legal & ethical to cast this spell (which has zero Sanity Cost) even if you have no opportunities for any kind of combat this turn? The reason for using Wither is to neutralize "The Unravelling Tapestry" rumour card (which is affected by the casting of any kind of spell).

Yeah, I think this works. There's no particular reason for it not to, because it doesn't really 'break' the Rumor; you still need quite a few spells, and you still need to exhaust them, which means you're using Wither for this and not for anything else.

Bear in mind that you CAN cast Wither at any time, in any phase; it's just that it won't have any effect unless you cast it during combat, because the card text says "until the end of this combat".

What an interesting and confusing situation, but I agree with thecorinthian 's assessment.

I have a problem with casting any Spell that requires hands outside of a combat situation. Seeing as how there are both Spells with and without hands, and any Spell with a hand is a combat-related Spell…it just seems like a forgone conclusion.

"Any Phase" means so very little. It's a simple blanket clause covering for the fact that combat can actually occur during almost every phase. (Upkeep Combat?) But there's not enough room on the card for "Movement, Arkham Encouter, Other World Encounter, Mythos". As a nation, we must all stop thinking that "Any Phase" means "Any Time".

(C'mon, Tibs. Your word is virtually law around here. You of all people need to be really careful whenever you say, "Yeah, whatever.")

Sighhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh……… I agree with jgt 's assessment too.

Well, casting the spell outside of combat means it's unavailable for use that round, for starters.

I don't know! Aren't there other spells that would have no effect when cast that are otherwise obviously legal? Can we come up with a spell that has a specific phase but we can say is illegal to cast even during that phase? What about casting Find Gate when you're in Arkham?

I think, for the most part, a Spell requires a "target", or in some cases a "prerequisite", in order to be even considered utilizable. Maybe the key is, a Spell isn't successfully cast unless you both make the Spell Check AND have the Spell actually "take effect".

Magic in the Mythos is generally "bad stuff". This is lore you aren't supposed to know. Mankind as a whole is not aware of magic, because that awareness would bring understanding that would eventually drive the race insane. This isn't a world where a quarter of the population can cast Magic Missile at a tree in order to "free up a memory slot"; if you're going to bend your mind into a pretzel to speak in tongues that shouldn't exist, you better MEAN it.

So no, you can't cast a combat Spell without a target, or without the condition that you actually be in combat. (No one can use a gun that way.) No, you can't cast Find Gate without being in an Other World, because you can't fulfill the text (like trying to shop without cash). Didn't we all once decide you couldn't cast Heal if there was no Stamina to be recovered? (This may have been in reaction to someone trying to be clever with a Blood Pact.)

(Now someone else tell me why Call Down the Storm and Intervene both require hands.)

I think Intervene's hand requirement is to prevent you from giving yourself a +2 in addition to the bonuses from other weapons. That is, you can use it for yourself, but not with other weapons. If you cast it on behalf of another investigator, he may use his weapons in addition.

My guess is similar for Call Down the Storm. To use it yourself, you need to commit your hands. Other investigators do not need to commit hands.

I think Call Down the Storm is a good example of why it should be legal. If, say, you Evaded a monster and cast Call Down the Storm in its neighborhood to help out another investigator who was planning to fight it, and then that second investigator failed to reach the monster (perhaps because they failed to Evade another monster), and no one else got in any fights in that neighborhood that turn, then, technically speaking, it served no purpose, but the investigator wouldn't be retroactively smote down for casting a spell with no purpose (or, perhaps more plausibly, you treat the spell as though it had never been cast). And from there, what's to stop people from casting Call Down the Storm "to help [another investigator] out", only to have the other investigator's player declare that he/she has changed his/her mind?

And really, jgt, I understand your argument from a thematic standpoint (i.e. magic should be a Big Deal), but from a narrative/logistical standpoint, it just doesn't make any sense. Magic is a Big Deal because it is deleterious to its user's sanity, but there's nothing stopping someone from using it in a frivolous way. There's no guardian spirit that stops humans from using magic for no good reason, and you could easily discharge the energy from a spell to no effect, just as, to use your examples, you could shoot the nearest wall or toss money on the ground (alright, I changed your example there, but I don't really see how you pay for leaving an Other World just by being in an Other World; otherwise, it would be free). For The Unraveling Tapesry, all that matters is the expenditure of spell energy. The time-space continuum doesn't care whether the energy affecting it was put to good use. And even if combat spells can't be used without a target, the investigator could just Wither a bug or something.

Re: Call Down the Storm…both make good points, and as such, it would seem to me that those two "assist" Spells are exceptions to the rule, not the rule itself. Before Lurker, no one ever thought about casting any Spell outside of their own turn, and unlike any other Spell, both of these have text that defines that privilege. I don't think that warrants a carte blanche on Spellcasting as a whole.

Walk, you've deconstructed Spellcasting down to a die roll and a Sanity cost. You might as well blank the text and reduce them all to "purple cards" with a couple of numbers on them. What if the only Spell Esto had had was Call Ancient One? Could Esto have chosen to discard no trophies, roll a couple of dice for 0 Sanity, and then just choose to not allow the Spell to happen? "I couldn't Wither a bug, so instead I summoned the Ancient One, but it's okay: I didn't really mean it." But perhaps, in THAT case, all conditions would be fulfilled and the Spell text WOULD take effect. Tough break.

Let's try Call Friend. There are two other Investigators besides the Spellcaster: one has already moved, the other hasn't. After rolled and paid for, couldn't the already-moved Investigator be targeted, thus producing no effect, but still "expending the energy"? Better yet, could the unmoved Investigator be targeted, and then just choose not to relocate him at all?

The text of the card can't simply "not matter". The whole Spell has to be able to work, not just the numbers above "Magical Spell".

You've sort of miscontrued my point on Call Down the Storm. To use another example, look at Revelation of Script. It causes you to gain a Clue whenever you get a Unique Item or Exhibit Item during the forthcoming turn. Technically, if you cast it and then don't get any of the appropriate item, it technically has no effect. But it's absurd to say that, if you don't end up getting any Unique or Exhibit Items, your spell retroactively counts as not haveing been cast (what if you had passed the rumor that turn?). Whether or not a spell is "cast" would presumably be determined at the moment when it's cast. Revelation of Script is cast for the purpose of gaining Clues when you get Exhibit/Unique Items, yet the Spell could easily accomplish absolutely nothing (i.e. get you no Clues) and still count as cast.

I do appreciate your point about a target, which is why I agree with you on Call Friend, but Wither's target is not your enemy, it's you. When cast, Wither gives you +3 to combat checks at the cost of one hand. You don't need to stand before an enemy to put a gun in your hand, and it's the same thing with Wither.

As to Call Ancient One: here, I disagree with you. You have a target, you just have no way of hitting it. That doesn't mean you can't try. There might be a situation where it's impossible to gain a Unique or Exhibit Item, yet you could still cast Revelation of Script then. Are you really suggesting that casting a spell when you have 0 Lore doesn't count as casting it?

Call Down the Storm and Revelation are spells that have some long-term effect. Wither does not, nor does Call Ancient One.

If you manage to pass the skill check on Call Ancient One, the Ancient One awakens and the game is over! Why would you want to use this spell to pass the rumor? You couldn't.

Walk said:

Not at all, but I assume you mean you have a way of acquiring dice (Clues, I guess). We can agree that a Spell Check must have a die roll, or another card that grants success.

But Revelation of Script is a bad example. You're ignoring the text again. Revelation of Script specifically says "…until the end of this phase." So of course it's a "preparatory" Spell. You can't predict what might or might not happen during that phase, so you're hedging your bets and loading your dice ahead of time. You could say the same thing about Voice of Ra, and just substitute "phase" for "turn". Again, it's printed right on the card.

Wither has "…until the end of this combat." I posit that there MUST be a "this combat" for this Spell to be attempted. Just like there must be a "this phase" and a "this turn", except those are much easier because there is no time during gameplay that there ISN'T a "phase" or "turn". But there are, oh, dozens of times during any game where there is no "this combat". (I've gone whole turns without a "this combat".) As far as the Investigator being the target: that's why I added "or prerequisite". Just because the Investigator is the target doesn't mean that the "target" isn't supposed to be in a "this combat" at the time.

And I was using Call Ancient One as an example of a 0/0 Spell that can ACTUALLY be cast at ANY time. Unlike any combat spell that requires a "this combat". I just don't see how you can put those two Spell cards next to each other, allow both to be cast during the same phase (outside of combat), and have one Spell work and the other not, because you're allowed to ignore part of one's card's text?

Tibs: The reason you would cast Call Ancient One is to add a Clue to The Unraveling Tapestry. Certainly, it's a pretty desperate tactic, but if the Ancient One is about to wake up anyway….

jgt7771: See, I understand what you mean, I just think it doesn't apply to Wither. Call Friend says that you must "choose an investigator in Arkham who has not moved this turn". That's a requirement. You must do that. That's what happens when you pass the spell. You can't apply the effect if there's no investigator in Arkham who hasn't moved yet. However, Wither states that "you gain +3 to Combat checks until the end of this combat." You seem to be basing the idea of combat as a requirement on the word "this". I might agree with you this if "this" were referring to something tied in to the effect of the spell. But it's not referring to the spell's effect, it's referring to the spell's duration . The duration is not the essential part of the spell, it's just how long the spell lasts. And here, the duration just happens to be instantaneous. There is no rule that states "a spell's duration must be longer than instantaneous".

Admittedly, that the spell does nothing would seem to confuse the issue somewhat. I would still lean towards allowing it, but I concede that it's a thorny issue. However, generally speaking, when presented with unclear mechanical language in Arkham, I generally believe that one should not say "Well, this language is rather unclear, but let's try to interpet it as best we can". Rather, one should examine the issue from a logical perspective. And logically, I reiterate my point that Wither, like Revelation of Script, is a spell that enchances one's capabilities.

Put it this way: imagine that an investigator is outside combat, in a situation in which he cannot possibly hope to gain Unique or Exhibit Items. He has Revelation of Script and Wither, but neither will accomplish anything for him. He may enhance his combat capabilities, but there is no foe to face. He may grant himself the capacity to gain knowledge when finding items, yet there are no items to find. Both of his spells grant him bonuses that he cannot use. Why should one spell be able to help pass The Unraveling Tapestry, but the other should not, since the strange cosmic forces at play in The Unraveling Tapestry respond to all magic equally? The only answer is "Because the language of Wither might indicate that it can't be cast outside combat". That's not a logical answer or a narrative answer, it's a mechanical answer, and since it's a rather tenuous mechanical answer, I don't think it justifies Wither being unusable outside combat.

My point is, if you fail to cast Call Ancient One, you don't mark the rumor.

If you succeed, the Ancient One immediately awakens so the rumor is canceled anyway!

Technically, I guess that if Call the AO is used for the sixth marker, you wake up the AO with one free spell each… (not that this can be particularly relevant, but anyway) and, after über- losing the FB, you can check in Tibs's statistics the "rumor passed" voice for the tapestry :-)

Sheesh, I'm sorry I brought up Call Ancient One at all. (Me, of all people, bringing up THAT cow patty? "Draw 1 Madness.")

Okay, Walk, I suppose I could bring up that anything you apply to Wither, would also apply to Shriveling, Dread Curse, Storm of Spirits, Fist, Razor…or your separation of "duration" as a "optional" portion of the Spell…or even that you're also treating hands on a Spell as "optional" even though there is NO situation involving hands except inside combat…

…but it's clear that our minds have each fixed on our own personal view of the situation, and, although we may each be able to objectively view the other's opinion, "it is obviously wrong, and there will be no convincing me otherwise." Heh. Just like sooo many other debates of Arkham Horror. Its supreme adaptability promotes easy conviction and dementia to all of us with equal measure. (The wonders of the system beget the perils of the system.)

For me to debate further, now that I think I completely understand your position and see no way to deter you from it, would just be eating bandwidth (and possibly inviting chairs into the ring ). So Instead I offer a hand to shake, a hearty "good match", and defer back to the moderator to move on to the discussion of the art of using a Shotgun against Quachil Uttaus.

The best way to use a Shotgun against Quachil Uttaus is to turn it on yourself.

Very well, jgt. A truce, as it were.

There really is an answer to this question, as there are to all questions. It's, well, whatever the designers intended. We can try to determine their intentions, but the ironic thing is, the answer might very well be completely different than what might seem logical. The designer could easily reply, "Well, actually, Wither can be cast outside of combat, but it only counts towards The Unraveling Tapestry if you get at least as many successes as the nearest monster's toughness." That's completely different from what's written, but, although I love Arkham, I can't pretend that there aren't certain effects which can't have been intended to work as written (who here actually rules that Falcon Point gives you an encounter during the Movement phase?).

And honestly, I think the problem lies with The Unraveling Tapestry. Much as I was banging on about theme, the idea that casting a spell, something which is such a perversion of the natural order that using it might drive one insane, actually in and of itself repairs the damage dealt by the Ancient One makes no sense, and the mechanical element basically guarantees that it's in one's best interest to test the outer limits of the rules, which is never a good thing in Arkham.

Tibs: Yeah, I was being inexplicably dense in my arguments about Call Ancient One. Pay them no heed.

Walk said:

I always thought of it as "interference." It isn't so much that the Ancient One is "punching holes" through the dimensional fabric, but pulling out a very specific set of threads to weaken the whole shebang in the most advantageous way. The Investigators cast Spells in an effort to "yank other threads", messing up the AO's careful design. It's not really "repairing" anything--that's what Seals are for: patches!--it's just jiggering with the AO's scheme enough to prevent any added escalation.