Looking at the way hit and damage numbers exist in the game I found it easier to separate the two. The following are the numbers I have come up with for the weapons without any rolling. While I started working on the heavier weapons I found it just as easy to include all the ranged weapons.

Weapon:
Damage: The Raw damage that is listed in the text for each weapon.
Pen: The Weapon’s listed penetration
Min: The minimum damage.
Max: The maximum damage.
Average: The average damage this weapon can do on a hit. The number here is based on the numerical average of the damage die multiplied by the number of dice rolled and rounded up for simplicity. (For a standard D10 this is 5.5. For Proven 2 it is 5.6. For Proven 3 it is 5.8.)
If there is any special quality that can change any of the stats it is listed on the following line.

Well here’s the beast:

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Laspistol 1d10+2 0 3 12 8
Las Carbine 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
M36 Lasgun 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Laslok 1d10+4 0 5 14 10
Long Las 1d10+3 1 4 13 9
Accurate 1die 2d10+3 1 5 23 14
Accurate 2die 3d10+3 1 6 33 20
Triplex Pattern Lasgun 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Overcharge 1d10+4 0 5 14 10
Overload 1d10+4 2 5 14 10
Bullpup Lasgun 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Hot-Shot Laspistol 1d10+4 7 5 14 10
Hotshot-Lasgun 1d10+4 7 5 14 10
Man Portable Lascannon 5d10+10 10 25 60 39
M41 Multi-Laser 2d10+10 2 12 30 21

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Autopistol 1d10+2 0 3 12 8
Stub Automatic 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Stub Revolver 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Hand Cannon 1d10+4 2 5 14 10
Sniper Rifle 1d10+4 3 5 14 10
Accurate 1die 2d10+4 3 6 24 15
Accurate 2die 3d10+4 3 7 34 21
Autogun 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Shotgun(Pump) 1d10+4 0 5 14 10
Shotgun 1d10+4 0 5 14 10
Combat Shotgun 1d10+4 0 5 14 10
Ripper Gun 1d10+8 0 9 18 14
Heavy Stubber 1d10+4 3 5 14 10
M34 Autocannon 3d10+8 6 11 38 25
Battle Cannon 3d10+10 8 13 40 26
Demolisher Cannon 4d10+20 10 24 60 42
Vanquisher Battle Cannon 3d10+10 16 13 40 27
Accurate 1die 4d10+10 16 14 50 32
Accurate 2die 5d10+10 16 15 60 38
Earthshaker Cannon 4d10+10 8 14 50 32

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Bolt Pistol 1d10+5 4 6 15 11
Boltgun 1d10+5 4 6 15 11
Storm Bolter 1d10+5 4 6 15 11
Heavy Bolter 1d10+8 5 9 18 14

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Inferno Pistol 2d10+10 12 12 30 21
Melta 2d10+10 24 12 30 21
Meltagun 2d10+10 12 12 30 21
Melta 2d10+10 24 12 30 21
Multi-melta 2d10+16 12 18 36 27
Melta 2d10+16 24 18 36 27

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Plasma Pistol 1d10+6 6 7 16 12
Maximal 2d10+6 8 8 26 17
Plasma Gun 1d10+7 6 8 17 13
Maximal 2d10+7 8 9 27 18
Plasma Cannon 2d10+10 8 12 30 21
Maximal 3d10+10 10 13 40 27

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Hand Flamer 1d10+4 2 5 14 10
Flamer 1d10+4 2 5 14 10
Heavy Flamer 1d10+5 4 6 15 11
Inferno Cannon 2d10+15 8 17 35 26

Weapon Damage Pen Min Max Average
Hellstrike Missile 3d10+7 7 10 37 24
Hunter Killer Missile 3d10+6 6 9 36 23
Blind Grenade 2d10 0 2 20 11
Fire Bomb Grenade 1d10+3 0 4 13 9
Frag Grenade 2d10 0 2 20 11
Krak Grenade 2d10+4 6 6 24 15
Frag Missile 2d10+2 2 2 22 13
Krak Missile 3d10+8 8 14 38 25
Minefield Missile 2d10 1 2 20 11
Scatter Missile 2d10 0 2 20 11
Blind Round 2d10 0 2 20 11
Frag Round 2d10 3 2 20 11
Minefield Round 2d10 1 2 20 11
Scatter Round 1d10+3 0 4 13 9

g0arr, your number mean absolutely nothing. Average weapon damages can be figured out use some very basic math. The whole point of this thread is dealing with how hard vehicles are to kill becasue most anti-armor weapons don't do anything to them. My original intention was to show this using a large number of attacks against various vehicles/facings. MW has gone and made a utility to help simulate this on a large scale in order to better understnad what the effects of any changes to weapon damages might be.

The point behind the numbers is to show the average numbers and the min/max numbers that can be created with each weapon. This can then be used to see how many shots it should take to kill a tank, and the effeciency of them. That was the point behind the chart.

But averages mean nothing in this situation. Using only average numbers and raw math, you get results different from if you actually roll like you would in game. I know this because I tried it and got some very disturbing results. Using just averages means most weapons won't penetrate or do any significant damage most of the time, not to mention you can't factor in RFs. Also, your numbers are off, you're dealing with dice, not raw numbers, you can't just round everything up.

Actual rolls and averages are equally pointless, you need to apply statistics to determine what percentage of hits will do SI damage and to what degree. Then use those derived numbers to drive your design.

And the desireable 'hardness' of vehicles depends on what you're trying to do to them. If the goal is emulating the tabletop game then, how many hits does it normally take for a lascannon or vanquisher or krak missile to pop a Leman Russ in the TT game? Tune towards that number.

Under the current rules? 3 glancing hits or one spectacular penetrating hit. For a Krak missile on the front armour that would require a 6 on the armour penetration roll, so in bad maths that is 18 hits. Lascannon, that is a 5 or a 6 (for a penetration), meaning a bad maths 9 hits.

Don't forget AP2 gives a bonus on the damage chart now. I'm ok with front armor being hard on russes and the like, but we're still looking at around 15 shots on average with a non-melta hit to pop side or rear on everything. That's pretty sad really. A good tank ambush team should be aiming for side or rear armor but one volley(3-5 shots) should generate something significant enough to remove the tank as a threat.

I would consider adding called shots to vehicles to help out the (usually) lone heavy trying to ambush an enemy armor patrol.

Okay, totally off topic, sort of. Varn, may I steal this quote?

"You know what, I hope you step on a ******* Lego. Thanks for invalidating all my bloody work!"

Bloody brilliant, sir, really. Just got off an 8 hour shift at the Escalations desk in a call center. Was tired and VERY grouchy. Am now very much relaxed, and at peace with the world, thanks to that very cathartic little comment. Oh, and my sides hurt, a lot. Please don't take this as ridicule, however. The comment was damned funny. Your work was not invalid; rather a miscalculation has lead to new understanding. Hopefully FFG will pick up on it, so when us poor footsloggers are invariably facing down a Traitor-driven Russ, we stand maybe a SMALL change of taking the beeyatch down….

Anyway, thank you for the laugh, but more important, to all of you, thank you for the extreme efforts to make the game a better one. Varn, Musclewizard, NO1_H3r3 et al, you all are like Mathematical Bombards…. You line up the shot as best you can, and you fire. Sure it may be a little inaccurate. You might flub the dice roll, but regardless, there's still a satisfying Emperor-Almighty KABOOM afterward. If your spotters are tight, you re-adjust a couple degrees left and drop the next one right in their laps. Essentially, kudos for your endless hours in battling the numerical hordes and the techno-heresies of Matlab from those of us afraid of adding 2+2. Every army needs their heavies, after all, even if they do occasionally miss…. Much appreciated.

Dear Lord, after all the great work FFG has done to make this a fun game, if they tried to base anything off the TT, then I might have to to suck off a las rifle. The TT rules always have been and probably always will be a massive cock up. There also one big reason why they are terrible to base an RPG off of, they are balanced for gameplay. On the table top, it doesn't matter if you are a single Guardsman up against a Space Marine, you roll well enough and you will kill him..in CC. The statistics given for units are such that they are made for a game that uses d6s. Also, the left hand has no ******* clue what the right is doing. Case in point: Ogryns, In TT rules they are retardedly more powerful that Marines, yet we know fluff-wise that's not true.

I haven't had much free time as of late, but when i get a moment I'll start using MW's tool to run a bunch of sims and see how long on average it takes to kill stuff over 20-50 battles, maybe more depending on how fast I can do things. Then I'll make some tweaks to weapons and see how that changes things.

Oh and you're welcome Hiro, however; to be honest, that line has been thrown around a lot on the interwebz.

Varn said:

I am not so sure we are sure fluff wise Ogryns aren't "retardedly" more powerful than Marines. I personally feel Deathwatch over blows Marines by a noticeable margin. Orgyns should be noticeably tougher than Space Marines.

Ogryns are nothing ore than humans who after generations of living on hard, high gravity worlds, have developed a slight mutation that makes them larger and more powerful. While they can be as large as Space Marines (most sources give them as being between 8 and 10 feet tall), they are much slower (some strains are known for being quite fat) and dumber. They also have a basic human physiology, just with larger builds. Marines on the other hand are genetically and chemically altered (their bones are infused with ceramite and bonded together and they have many redundant organs) to be unstoppable killing machines. When you factor in power armor, Ogryns are a complete joke. Depending on what sorces you read from, it only takes a few hundred Marines to overwhelm rebel PDF forces and take over an entire planet. In one case, a SINGLE Marine was dispatched and quite easily cleared up an entire Dark Eldar raiding force from one world. Granted there are other instences of Marines getting completely massacred (Celestial Lions), these tend to be isolated incidents involving lesser chapters, and other forces seemingly have no problem facing similar situations (Salamanders).

Varn said:

Varn said:

However, Space Marines are smarter, faster, better trained and much better equipped. They may be superior on an overall level, but in physical toughness alone an Ogryn will beat a Marine.

This may or may not be of interest, but I am re-posting here for your dissemination. It's a bit lengthy, but may be of help addressing weapon Damages/Pen values vs. vehicle armour…

Note-These House Rules (intended for use with from-the-book Dark Heresy, meaning no DH/Black Crusade-hybrid rules) do not change the mechanics of Righteous Fury. (This post is transported from the DH House Rules forum, but I feel it can be applied to any of the Core systems.)

Called Shot- This Attack Action becomes a Free Action, imposing a -20 penalty to BS, and can be used in conjunction with the Standard Attack, and the Half Action and Full Action Aims. Used in conjunction with the Half Action or Full Action Aims, the Called Shot penalty to BS may be mitigated or negated, otherwise the Called Shot is more difficult, and the PC is simply hoping to hit his mark at the expense of using less time…time she/she may not have in dire circumstances. The following House Rules for Accurate weapons are therefor intended to work with this new Called Shot mechanic.
POV- Called shots are typically used to hit soft or unprotected targets, but I see their purpose being greater than that obvious potential, such as: you want to stop a fleeing suspect without killing him, so you casually unholster your Scalptaker and shoot him in the leg (specifically) hoping for a crippling critical ("Yeah, I'll getcha a bandage, just as soon as you spill it!"); you want to punch through the turret plating of a Chimera command variant in hopes of taking out the platoon Lieutenant, so you leap into the liberated Autocannon nest and swing the barrel around…; you want to nick a fly from your best mate's pate on a dare; etc. Called shots are the stuff of legend, like Babe Ruth pointing to the wall. Achieving your goal won't necessarily be an easy thing, but you should at least be free to make the choice to look like a total badass on a whim, hence I've made Called Shot a Free Action, yet it still has an associated penalty.

The Accurate Quality- This game mechanic does not change, insofar as receiving an additional +10 to BS in addition to the bonuses for Half and Full Action Aims.

Accuracy- Pistols: Extra damage may be inflicted, dependent on the wielder using a Half Action (calculates up to 1 DoS) or Full Action (calculates up to 2 DoS) Aim. Example- The wielder of an Acurate Pistol uses a Half Action Aim, shoots his target and achieves 3 DoS; calculating up to 1 DoS (for the Half Action Aim), the wielder will do additional Damage equal to the Penetration value of the weapon x1 (Penx1). Using a Full Action, the wielder may count up to 2 DoS, so the extra damage inflicted would be Penx2. Pen values of 0-1 are counted as 2 for purposes of calculating extra damage inflicted.

This would give Accurate Pistol weapons (such as the Needle Pistol) with low base damage and/or low/nil Pen the additional punch to make them worth consideration of use. A Full Action Aim with a Needle Pistol that achieves 2 or more DoS would do d10+4 R Damage, Pen 0 (Toxic), allowing a greater chance of punching through the collective armour/Toughness protection of a target in order to introduce it's Toxic Quality. It would also make the Khayer-Addin Dueling Las (Pistol; the "Valentine") perform to the expectations of its description; with a Full Aim Action and 2 or more DoS the "Valentine" would do d10+12 E, Pen 4 (Tearing). The balance of this rule is reflected in individual weapons' Clip sizes, Reload times, Availability, Cost(s), prerequisite Talents and their costs, and other already-existent factors inherent in the rules. As noted above, the mechanics for Righteous Fury remain unchanged in light of this House Rule.

Accuracy-Basic: As for Pistols, except a Half Action Aim Allows for the addition of up to 2x calculated Pen-damage per DoS, up to 2, and a Full Action Aim up to 4x calculated Pen-damage per DoS, up to 4. By way of example, a PC with a BS of 49 takes a Called Shot Free Action (-20) and takes a Full Action Aim (+20) with a standard-issue Long-Las (Accurate; +10), and rolls an 08 to hit, achieving 5 DoS. The resulting Damage would be d10+3 (base) +8 (4 [max possible] DoS x calculated Pen-damage 2), Pen 1. The same PC, using an Angelis Boltgun, taking the same Actions and achieving the same DoS, would do 2d10+20, Pen 5 (note the Angelis does not have the Tearing Quality), further justifying its illegal/proscribed nature. Again, Basic weapons with a Pen of 0-1 treat their Pen as 2 for calculating additional Pen-damage inflicted.

Pen-altering/increasing Ammo Types- Use the altered/increased Pen value to calculate Pen-damage as normal.

Using the above House Rules to address weapon Pen values in conjunction with vehicle armour- Without delving too deeply into the math, just glancing at it over its surface, I think the above rule could be applied to every weapon (not just those with the Accurate Quality) when the target is a vehicle. Obviously, there are going to be to-hit Size modifiers that increase the chances for greater DoS, but if you apply a slightly different formula to the calculations it will still leave some weapons woefully incapable of affecting armour (vehicles), barring the occurrence of Righteous Fury…or Zealous Hatred, as the case may be. Not many pistols should be expected to throw the track of a Leman Russ MBT. The adjustment would look something like this:

Any Accurate Pistol or Basic weapon works exactly as described above. So, obviously, a standard-issue, run-of-the-mill Laspistol has little (if any) chance of punching the glacis plate of a Leman Russ MBT without successive RF/ZH dice. Basic and Heavy weapons that do not actually possess the Accurate Quality are treated as having the Accurate Quality when targeting a vehicle, though they do not receive the additional +10 BS bonus for aiming. Basic weapons use the Pistol Pen-damage calculation rules (see above), and Heavy weapons using the rules for Basic weapons (see above). No more needing to be within half listed range for Melta weapons to double their Pen value (I think that "quick fix" is crap). The "Valentine" would max out (barring RF/ZH) at 26 points of Damage (including its Pen), which is 12 points short of punching the front armour of a Chaos Dreadnoght (see 'Rites of Battle). A Mk III "Sunfury" Plasma Pistol would max out (barring RF/ZH) at 38 (including its Pen)…just enough to ding that Dread. An Astartes Meltagun (Deathwatch; pg. 145)…67 points, including its Pen, which is more than enough to blow a hole into a Land Raider. An Astartes Missile Launcher (Krak; Deathwatch; pg. 150)…64 points. It's worth mentioning, these are MAXIMUM damage quotes, assuming 10s rolled on all dice, not accounting for RF/ZH…and a Land Raider starts with a Structural Integrity of 95. You'd be lucky to take a Land Raider with less than ten (standard) Melta blasts. A Tech-Marine with the right Talents could squeak out a few more points, but that's otherwise as it should be.

IMPORTANT NOTE! In all instances, PCs MUST use the Called Shot Free Action in conjunction with an Aim Action (Half or Full) in order to benefit from the additional Pen-damage calculated. NPCs with the Touched By Fate Talent may use these House Rules.

I approached these House Rules from the viewpoint of Accurate Basic weapons being meant for use at range, not up close and personal. I'm tired of the close-range (8-17m) firefights including "sniping" weapons. I know it's an issue of meta-gaming and min-max gaming…blah, blah, blah. Telescopic Sights will remove extreme-range BS penalties, Silencers will reduce the chances of a target reflexively ducking (and thus fouling a shot) due to the sound of a weapon's report. Or, the silent Needle Pistol can be used at close range (say from just around a corner) to temporarily knock out the Enforcer left overnight to watch over the scene of a recent murder, and with less-than-lethal injury. Or, the "Valentine" truly becomes the one-shot dueling las-pistol of the rich and "cultured" upper hive spires. I'm trying to encourage ROLE playing.

These rules may add a little more time due to calculations. But honestly, if your players don't know the Pen values of their weapons and how to quickly calculate DoS by now, what does a little more time matter? The Core Rule combat mechanics are cumbersome in any case. And besides, I don't like adding dice to damage pools, as doing so seems (to me) to be counter-intuitive. Hence adding damage based on DoS.

These rules could be transported over to Deathwatch and/or Black Crusade, but here are some suggestions:

Felling-The Felling Quality continues to work as described.

Razor Sharp- The Razor Sharp Quality is treated as the Accurate Quality, but for melee weapons. (I have recently imported the Razor Sharp Quality to my Dark Heresy game; in this case, all damage-type R melee weapons with a Pen value [natural or upgraded] are considered to also have said Quality, using the multipliers outlined for Pistols [see above]. It has worked well so far, and served as the foundation for the House Rules in this post.)

The Emperor Protects,
Commissar Alekzanter Kurn, XLVII Horan Jezaliers

Interesting house rule. Although given the discussion topic, rather than adding damage based on a multiple of the pen, why not just multiply the pen?

So a super accurate shot with a needle pistol won't do more potential damage, but you can hit that tiny seam in the carapace armour and actually make them roll the toxic save.

Functionally however that would be the same as giving everything the lance quality.

Might be doable as a Talent however.

Armour Hunter

Rank 3 talent

Prerequisites (WT Las or Melta, Heavy), Sharp Shooter (Aptitudes BS, Tech)

Extensive training by the Adeptus Mechanicus has taught you where and how to best harm enemy armour. They now watch you however, distrustful of any who would wish to harm the sacred machines.

Any Las, Melta or Krak weapon you fire counts as having the Lance quality when used against a Vehicle or Mechanism of size Hulking or Larger.

Something like that.

My intention was to do away with the extra dice for Accurate DoS. I'm not a fan of mechanics that increase the damage dice pool.