I'm sure I can get a roll of squared lino somewhere Should be playing a large multi-player at club next week.

Gothik said:

No, the rules say you can only field a single Command Squad of each Armor type.

Loophole Master said:

That might be a clue to the SSU organisation in DW though. A Regular Co. a Guard Co. and maybe an airborne Co.??

Hopefully that is true regaurding regular, gaurd and airborne troop types.

I hope they take the axis and the allies down the same path by releasing a bazooka armed armor2 command squad also.

I like the look and idea of underground tiles, as well as the facts they are adding tracked vehicles (with the Soviet propensity to risk soldiers by riding them into battle). Of course, if the soldiers are supposed to be inside and protected, it adds to the frustrating elements of the new announcements.

The first disappointment is not a big deal for those who have other tastes, but I liked DUST as an alternate history moderate sci-fi game. Adding super heroes is not something I'm interested in. A Soviet Iron Man does not impress me. If he's Armor 4, I'm less impressed, because that leaves nowhere for the Vrill to go with what should be more advanced technology. The heavy walkers being Armor 7 was the same disappointment. It works, but it doesn't leave anywhere for the Vrill to show better technology. Consider the difference between a WW2 tank and a modern tank only 70 years ahead on technology. A King Tiger is a joke compared to an M1 Abrams. The heavies work within the game, as will Armor 4 infantry, but the Vrill get shafted for whenever they show up. I can play without Iron Man, and I'm glad there are people who like him for the game, but not me.

The vehicles are both a good thing, and a very bad thing. One of the things I hated about 40K was the stupid proportions on their vehicles. One of the things I find silly in DUST is the decision that guns must be bigger to be better, because bigger guns were frequently less effective against vehicles. The new DUST vehicles address both issues.

The quad 85mm AA mount I have no problem with other than imagining the hell it would cause a crew to keep it loaded. The Soviet 85mm gun was originally an AA gun, just like the German 88mm, so that's fine. Mounting four of them together, even with auto-loading, would be an incredible ammo hog, as each round, without propellant, would be about 10kg (22 poinds). Ammunition supply and weight was one of the reasons they used small guns in multiple mountings. There were good reasons to go with quads on small guns, duals on slightly bigger guns, but single mounts for the biggest guns.

The 252mm mortar is the mount that really disappointed me. 40K was the first game where I saw vehicle models that were completely ridiculous, but this one is a perfect match. The gun is huge, and looks impressive, but guns recoil, and there is nowhere for the crew to be in that turret and survive when that gun fires. Considering a 155mm HE shell is 95 pounds (43kg), and an 8" (208mm) shell increases that to just over 200 pounds (91kg), a 252mm shell would weigh around 400 pounds (182kg) just for explosive and casing to hold it. The 155mm & 8" weights are from actual HE shells, to give an idea of the weight increase with larger guns. None of those weights includes propellant, and are just the explosive and the casing. How many rounds that size would you expect that vehicle to carry when it needs room for the crew, the vehicle power plant and controlls, the turret mechanism, and propellant for those shells. The KV2 had a 152mm gun in a turret, and it only caried ten rounds on board the vehicle. These rounds would be far larger, with a gun that was both larger, and had more recoil. Add to that the idea of the crew having to load those big rounds. Big rounds normally use a hydraulic ram to load them, which is that much more space. Even if you assume an automated loader, which the turret size gives no room for, the vehicle is fantasy instead of something that belongs in science fiction.

I like them adding vehicles, and look forward to seeing more.

I just wish the vehicles looked like actual combat vehicles intead of a silly kids toy.

Karl-Gerät, that is all.

Dakkon426 said:

Yes, they had really big guns mounted on tracks. They had really big guns mounted in turrets on warships, as well.

Those guns needed support just to carry the ammunition, and many were limited traverse weapons because of the problems in handling the recoil. Warship turrets were huge compared to ground vehicles, and had the advantage of a full sized ship to carry rounds for the guns. Ground guns faced far bigger problems.

Those guns were also of limited tactical capability at the front because of the time it took to load each round. They fired from far away, and prayed they weren't overrun by enemy units, bacause they had little they could do about it.

This is a big gun with no support to carry the rounds, mounted in a turret too small to handle the recoil or have room for a crew to man the gun.

That makes it a far bigger problem than any of the big land guns.

The Sturmtiger would be a better example. It mounted a bigger gun than this, at 380mm, but had to mount it in a fixed mount instead of a turret, and could only carry 14 rounds in the extra space the lack of a turret gave them. It also fired rockets instead of standard rounds, so recoil was not an issue. The Brummbar was a closer example, as it fired normal rounds, but it was limited to a 150mm gun and carried 38 rounds.

Turrets are harder to design for bigger guns. Turret problems slowed the issue of the Sherman, and led to the development of the Grant/Lee as a stop gap vehicle with a 75mm gun. The turret on any 155mm self propelled howitzer is huge to give room for the crew during recoil.

Recoil is a problem for any gun. Physics is physics unless you want magic added to cancel it. Recoil dampers can help, but the vehicle has to handle what's left. Howitzers dig spades into the ground behind their tracks, and I've seen a 26 ton howitzer lift off the ground onto those spades when firing. If the gun is mounted in a turret, the turret has to handle the recoil, which makes the task much harder, because the turret also has to be able to turn freely.

I'd like to see the Vrill come out with some fancy cool skills and not only rely on Armor types to be unique.

I'd like to see them with skills like Phasing, Displacement, Hologram duplicates, Stealth, Partial invisibility and some unique type of weapons. What about some kind of "magic" or powers never seen by the Human eyes before.

Make them frail physically but loaded with awesome skills…and how about 6-mini squads? Humans have lasers, phaser weapons, flamethrowers, jump packs. Now the SSU will have Superhumans that can control this E.T. energy to some limit. The Vrills have A LOT of lore to be completely unique.

They could have psionics through which they're able to convert enemy units to their side.

Loophole Master said:

Woah great idea. That would fit them nicely!

Wow LOL I just quickly checked for the prices to get every SSU units, including the upcoming and I compared the prices with the ones from my FLGS…

For the ontire SSU collection it would cost me 540CAD including taxes…Double LOL

From some etailer I like: 400CAD including shipping and tax…1.5 LOL

Hope i'll get many for my birthday next week!

SolennelBern said:

It's best not to think on how much you spend, let alone calculate it LOL. Best to buy in dribs and drabs as they are release from multiple vendors, then you think that you have only just spent £20 and not £200.

All i know once i saw the IS-5 heavy tank i was like I MUST HAVE THIS THING!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cool, my sister offered me the SSu Specialists for my birthday! The only pack easily available from our LGS…which is weird but giving the SSU is new, it's no big deal.

To complement that, I got the Ariborne Transport and the Commissars from a gameshop where my girlfriend lives.

And on top of that, just ordered Op. Zverograd in it's Premium Edition from Dust Game!

My SSU army is building up quite nicely!

Sorry it took so long for me to respond. I just got finished reading Gimps 2 articles…haha just kidding pal, your insight is always interesting. The tank models do look great.

Gimp, I my be saying something silly, but do we know the Lenin doesn't fire rockets?

Just received my Premium Zverograd yesterday and am amazed by the painting quality. **** Grand'ma never looked so good! Great details, nice "dusty" and "rusty" effect that i'll try to duplicate on the Axis and Allies walkers.

Just ordered the Premiums Frontoviki too and some snow bases from Dust Games.

My SSU army will soon be ready! Just need Walker Transport, Attack Copter and some more squads!

SolennelBern said:

Is there a chance for some pics of those premiums? I'm relly intrested how they present;)

Lska said:

Sure, i'll try to take some ASAP…today or tomorrow you'll see some pics.

There you go, some poor quickly taken pics of the Premium Grand'ma and Koshka.

Nice, BIG THX. They look much better than hvy walker premiums.

Lska said:

Yeah, it's my first time buying Premium or pre-painted minis and Dust did an amazing job. Really great and for 15$ more than the normal version of Op. Zverograd you get the Premium one. Extremely worth it IMO!

I was so impressed that I ordered the Frontoviki Premium and gonna add some more Premium along the way. Painting is getting boring