The thing about AlluminiumWolf is, he doesn't actually like the Space Marines at all.

What he likes about them are their Unnatural Strength and Toughness and their high WS/BS values.

What he doesn't like about them are all the things that tell Space Marines apart from Halo's Spartans, guys from Gears of War or even freaking Duke Nukem.

It's obvious from his posts that what he actually wants to play is a wisecracking supersoldier who always smokes a cigar stump and oggles sexy guardswomen while holding off daemons with one hand. Flipping and rolling from cover to cover while he's at it.

It's obvious from every bit of 40k fluff ever published that Space Marines, the not-quite-human supersoldiers who live monastic lives and whose training, physique and gear transcends the tactical considerations of lesser creatures, is nothing like AW imagines.

But somehow, the dichotomy is lost on him.

To be fair, Wolf's vision of a Mightier Duke Nukem is more appealing to me than regular Space Marines.

Of course, I hate the current Space Marines, so thats a statement coming from an Anti-Fan. =)

Not sure I can grasp why you're here in the DEATHWATCH FORUM if you literally hate Space Marines. That seems silly.

AluminumWolf amuses me?

This forum often has interesting debates?

Morangias said:

I would have said I was aiming for guys like Achilles or Lancelot. But I'd probably settle for Usain Bolt.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/olympics/19204226

People who are good at what they do, know they are good at what they do, and everyone recognises they are good at what they do. Aggression, Ambition, Self Belief.

And this isn't incompatible with religious life. I know from experience that the Church of England is full of holier than thou self aggrandising assholes who think they have a personal line to God. It attracts them like flies to sh*t.

(Now, admittedly, this is principally so I can wonder around the Imperium treating everyone I meet like dirt, but I have never met anyone who doesn't enjoy that.)

--

In general, I would suggest the model isn't Duke Nukem, but Kratos .

--

Certainly though, I see room for Marines who look and act like the guys from Darksiders. I have often said that War from Darksiders 1 is everything I want in a Space Marine, and now we have Darksiders 2:-

Can we imagine a heady mix of Darksiders and Tacticool?

(I call it Tacticool because I don't know if there is a word for 'Tacticool, only actually tasteful' (I mean, calling something 'Tactical' is about as Tacticool as you can get!), because like I say there is a very fine line between genius and insanity (and I fundamentally feel we should be walking that line as a matter of principle), and to wind up people who I feel have a stick up their backside about liking the cool stuff.)

So you say, but I fail to see that in your posts. The only aspect I see linking Achilles and Lancelot with what you advocate for Space Marines is, uhm, using their junk as an important motivator for life decisions.

Other than that, what you state you want boils down to "every hero of every action vidya ever".

It's quite obvious that you actually hate most existing fluff, and if I recall you're not that fond of the rules of the game either. So why play it? There are games that better fit your criteria.

+++++The only aspect I see linking Achilles and Lancelot with what you advocate for Space Marines is, uhm, using their junk as an important motivator for life decisions.+++++

Well, it is an important part of their characters! :-) (Might I point out that Usain Bolt was seen out partying at 3am with the Swedish womens handball team the night he won gold in the 100m?)

Most of the rest of it is to do with making Marines awesome enough to live up to their reputation. Once they are legendary, they can start acting like it .

+++++It's quite obvious that you actually hate most existing fluff, and if I recall you're not that fond of the rules of the game either. So why play it? There are games that better fit your criteria.+++++

See, I'd have said I like the version of the fluff where a hundred Marines can take a system and a mere million Battle Brothers are enough to conquer a galaxy. Where Marines look like this:-

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_foros_discusion.asp?efid=214&efcid=3&efidt=678501

(and you surely can't tell me they couldn't walk in to Darksiders and look right at home)

Where Space Wolves ride giant cybernetic wolves in to battle and Dan Abnett writes Brothers of the Snake.

I don't think anything I suggest is anything more than a valid interpretation of how the fluff could work.

But in general, how frickin obvious is it that people want Marines to be Awesome? Why the resistance? Quit pissing about and just make Marines friggin awesome already. Jesus. It is like pulling teeth!

AluminiumWolf said:

Obviously it's not, because except in your own little fantasy world it never comes up.

Oh and a sportsman know's how to party what a frikin surprise, anyone would think Usain bolt was a legend in a field that didn't involve him risking his life on a day to day basis, oh wait he's just a sportsman and not soldier, and even the legendary soldiers we know aren't transhuman zealots of war in the 40th millenium

AluminiumWolf said:

Answered your own question there, the Imperium does have a million Space Marines in any fluff , plus a uncountable number of Imperial Guard and other forces and not only can't they completely conquer the galaxy but the Imperium is supposed be on the verge of destruction.

Looking frikin awesome and being unkillable are two different things, clearly if you are p!ssed off that you are constrainted in what you marine character does and that you actually have a chance of dying then you should be playing some superhero game where your ego can be pandered to specifically.

AluminiumWolf said:

The thing is, your definition of "awesome" is my definition of painfully bland. Adeptus Astartes are explicitly not like every other action hero around, and that's what makes them awesome in this monotonous world where all action heroes look the friggin same.

+++++The thing is, your definition of "awesome" is my definition of painfully bland. Adeptus Astartes are explicitly not like every other action hero around, and that's what makes them awesome in this monotonous world where all action heroes look the friggin same.+++++

Fundamentally, I don't think there is any percentage in trying to cling to making Space Marines, the uber commercial heroes of Games Workshop and the biggest thing in gaming unattractive to people who like Space Marines.

I don't see what is in it for GW to be able to say 'you know those Bodybuilder hero types we have been selling you for ages? Well they are ALL EUNUCHS!!!!! Ha! And you liked them! Sucker!!!!!!!'. I mean, that is something for 'Fans' tired of the masses blind devotion, but it isn't something GW themselves should be getting in to.

It is very easy get caught up in the notion that anything popular is inherently bad, but it is self defeating because it means you are always looking over your shoulder to make sure you are not creating anything anyone will actually like!

I dunno. If you want to be deliberately iconoclastic and challenge peoples perception of …stuff… why try to do it with Space Marines? Just let Space Marines be cool and leave the telling it like it is for something that doesn't have to carry a chain of high street stores.

+++++Oh and a sportsman know's how to party what a frikin surprise, anyone would think Usain bolt was a legend in a field that didn't involve him risking his life on a day to day basis, oh wait he's just a sportsman and not soldier+++++

It isn't like soldiers don't party. I've been to a pub in Cambridge where bomber crews used to burn the number of their plans in to the ceiling before going on missions over Germany. And the Few of fighter command were notoriously boozy, to try to deal with the stress they were under. I'd also comment on just how much prostitution there is in Vietnam war movies.

And guys like The Red Baron were at least as famous as Bolt (indeed, one of the reasons people liked Fighter Pilots was because it was percieved that in Air Combat a good pilot could legitimately carve out a reputation by their personal skill at arms in a way that hadn't been possible for a long time).

(And before that you had guys like Admiral Nelson. Nelson was married, but he met and fell in love with Emma Hamilton, the wife of a British ambassador. And eventually fathered a daughter with her. Said ambassador was pissed, but he didn't feel he could do anything because Nelson was already a legend in England. But it was still a scandal. People talked. And when Nelson returned to England there was an ugly scene where Nelsons wife demanded that he choose her or his mistress. He chose his mistress. But that is probably one for The Other Thread. Anyway, the point is that Nelson was legit famous (and more famous than any modern sporting star - he saved the country after all), for war, and he still acted like horny footballer.)

--

(Can we see Marines having Space Twitter accounts where they keep their fans abreast of their exploits?)

So FIRST you don't think Robocop is cool, and NOW you're trying to tell me that, what, Games Workshop isn't selling well ?

Are you serious?

+++++So FIRST you don't think Robocop is cool+++++

I liked Robocop fine at the time, but it isn't 1987 any more. Enormous advances have been made in the art and science of looking cool while killing things in the last 25 years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rav4Gyg4Xns (Robocop ZX Spectrum)

He can't run, he can't dodge, he can't jump.

Now, we have Raiden !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1qoDoixIxms

.

..

.

Oh all right. I still love Robocop!

+++++and NOW you're trying to tell me that, what, Games Workshop isn't selling well ?+++++

I don't think Marines being not all that awesome and in fact eunuchs is why it sells well. I don't think what attracts people to Space Marines is that they are not over the top and they don't have erections.

Oh, Marines are completely over the top, just not in the way you want them to be.

Fundamentally, they are still superheroes who march in tens against tens of thousands and win. In fact, their fluff makes them explicitly more powerful than most supersoldiers from other comparable sources. But that's kinda the point - they don't fight like supersoldiers, they fight like superheroes. They are Angels of Death, after all. Don't expect angels to fight or behave like mortals.

Morangias said:

Hmm. Okay, at this point I should mention that my view of Angels is formed largely by Good Omens, The Sandman and Lucifer comics (and related Neil Gaimen inspired Angel media) and the In Nomine roleplaying game.

So crashing mobile phone networks at peak time and causing the M25 motorway to be built so it forms an arcane symbol when viewed from above are the kind of things Angels/Demons do. And Lucifer moonlights as a lounge piano player (The Devil, in particular, is often portrayed as dead slick - see Devil's Advocate for instance, and like they say the Devil has all the best tunes…). And Angels have been using guns for a very long time now:-

So fundamentally, if the Heavenly Host and the Legions of Hell turned up to fight it out and decide things once and for all, they would totally do it Tacticool style. It would be a mix of Tacticool and Angelness - so for instance they would have wings and halos but carry a flaming M4 carbine (with red dot sight and Magpul angled foregrip) instead of a flaming sword. And they would wear plate carriers and tactical vests adorned with religious symbols, and maybe even styled to fit the forms of Angels described in the Bible:-

+++++Cherubim have four faces: one of each a man, an ox, a lion, and an eagle. They have four conjoined wings covered with eyes, a lion's body figure, and they have ox's feet. Cherubim guard the way to the tree of life in the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:24) and the throne of God (Ezekiel 28:14-16)+++++

So anyway, why should they look like this:-

Angels were created before the physical universe, so why are their weapons medieval?

No, these days angels go to war dressed like This!:-

You do realize Army of Two is one of the most goofy, brotastic shooters out there, right?

Wait, that's the point….

Vergaul said:

This thread isn't called Tacticool by accident … I leave pondering the delta between Chris Costa, Army of Two and your own time at the range as an exercise for the reader.

Anyway, I like Army of Two. The Aggro mechanic works pretty well, the masks look really cool, the act of shooting people feels pretty good and I like Salem and Rios.

And I think its larger than life take on things works pretty well for 40k. Take a look at this concept art for The 40th Day as an example of incorporating Tacticool elements in to fantasy designs:-

AluminiumWolf said:

So wrong on so many levels

Face Eater said:

I know right! :0)

But I have signed up to follow a whole bunch of (British) olympic athletes on twitter, and it is vastly entertaining to see them comment on all the nice cakes they have been sent and whatnot. Or Mo Farah talking about going to frigging Nandos. Or Bradley Wiggins boosting a band he likes or something. (Being something of a Luddite I am new to twitter, so this is all fresh and exciting for me)

And the internet and ubiquitous telecommunications are a massive part of modern life, and it isn't going to go away.

So it seems to me, or at least appeals to me, that we should see if we can work them in to 40k.

I suggest:-

Every citizen has tablet thing implanted in to their wrist at age two. I guess it looks like a gothic version of the Pipboy 3000 from Fallout.

Everyone is expected to write at least seven blog posts a day extolling the virtues of living under the Emperors protection, and how lucky they are to serve Him.

People are expected to Like the Emperor at least once every twenty minutes. Including during designated sleep periods. Although really only every twenty minutes shows you are lacking somewhat in gratitude for His efforts for you.

Searching for certain prescribed terms (Freedom, Science etc.), or other Thoughtcrimes, earns you a visit from the feared Moderators .

But there is a underground 'net. Some citizens have learned to erase their online identity, and can move through the Information Superhighway undetected by the Moderators and their hunter-killer software. They are… Anonymous .

And I am pretty sure Hive Gangs post holos of their fights and atrocities committed for Lulz to Space YouTube.

I'd assume there is no internet-equivalent in 40k because actual, literal Daemons would infest it . Wikipedia would be a death sentence in a universe where glancing the wrong book can drive you insane or get you hunted down by Inquisitors.

On another note:

"lol gtg Eldat again #nancies"

Ya know, in the two pages since my last post, others came in and made my point about tacticool crap a bit more eloquently than I did (sometimes), so I'll just leave it at that.

And apoligise for snapping the way I did.

You test my patience sometimes Wolf, though I don't fault you for your enthusiasm for the game, especially since I never really liked your casual dismissal of how much work the olympians actually had to put in to getting their medals (Phelps was eating 12,000 freaking calories a day!). I suppose I'm just a bit overprotective since I feel the simulationists ruined Exalted by rallying behind Chung and forcing every **** rule in the game to be made idiot/munchkin proof, to name bit a few points.

Now on a side note… now that Lynata is back, I'm justdreading and eagerly awaiting and the collision of those you in a thread together. It's going to be like matter and anti-matter coming together. lol

+++++ I'd assume there is no internet-equivalent in 40k because actual, literal Daemons would infest it . Wikipedia would be a death sentence in a universe where glancing the wrong book can drive you insane or get you hunted down by Inquisitors.+++++

That is certainly a valid interpretation!

I would argue that it is worth ignoring such problems is worth it to enable one to bring elements of internet/social media culture in to the setting, but that is just my opinion.

And anyway, hunting down the actual, literal demons infesting the Internet sounds like the kind of job a PC would have! (And the feared Moderators are always trying to control what people look up on Wikipedia for just this reason. (And generally to oppress people))

Also, I would note that there is mention in the novels of the Adeptus Mechanicus maintaining extensive data networks ('The Noosphere' is it?). So this could either mean you could do the social media stuff there or use it as an excuse to show data networks are entirely possible (FWIW, I'd kinda prefer everyone to be on the net, for maximum entertainment value - it is only fun if the absolute peons have the 'net).

+++++"lol gtg Eldat again #nancies"+++++

YES!

There is a scene in Enemy at the Gates where superstar sniper Vasili Zeitzev answers some letters from his fans:-

[Vassili Zaitsev tries to write a letter to a a group of coal miners who wanted to dedicate their mine in his honor]
Vassili : Shouldn't we try and make the point that I'm not the only one fighting?
Danilov : [dictates thoughts for Vassili to write] That's an excellent idea. We can take it even further though. Your battle for the production of coal is as worthy as mine. There's no 'k' in coal. Just one 'l'. Tell me if I'm going too fast.
Vassili : No, you're not going too fast. Is there any other improvements?
Mrs Filipov : Why don't you get some rest? These letters can wait until tomorrow.
Vassili : We should carry on. We're not tired. Thank you, Mrs Filipov. These people took the trouble to write to us. Tomorrow we might not be around to write back.

And Flags of our Fathers is about 'Heroes' doing tours of the home front to drum up support for the war. So there is a role for Marines exploiting their status as heroes.

And in an internet society that surely means having a twitter account.

Also, I think the pithy phrases 40k is so known for work very well as tweets.

'An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded' is, I believe 70 characters…

And, of course, we must ponder being able to follow a battle unfold by the tweets of participants, bystanders and the wider audience back home. Surely one would want rapid updates on the score of heretics and xenos smited by your favourite Marine?

--

You can see people working Tacticool stuff in to these character designs:-

Wait, so if I get it right:

You've started with some pics and videos of some gung-ho trigger-happy guy, who probably wants to compensate something with his showing off and apply current things into the 40k universe. Then you continue making your point (or what passes for making the point) with some PC games characters and again back to 40k analogies for current things.

In that case either you don't understand that the 40k universe is not for you (because such crap has no place in this setting, or at least not where you are trying to shove it), or this thread if just a well thought-out trolling attempt.

So, if the first thing is true, then neither words, nor facepalm pictures can sufficiently describe the amount of fail.

If the second is true, then you get a 14/10 troll rating from me and I consider you a troll king.

klaymen_sk said:

He's really good at it. Even though I'm fairly certain he's trolling, I still feel compelled to answer, because the very thought of the nonsense he spews sitting on this board not debunked for someone not in the know to see is existentially painful.

Morangias said:

He is pretty **** good, his nonsense has provoked 7 pages of "discussion".

Morangias said:

The only winning move is not to play. The troll is well fed,now we have to let him starve.

Trust me, I know the game by heart.

Still, the idea that someone new might come to this board, see AW's posts hanging there with no serious discussion, and decide that since they're not disputed, he may be right, is horrifying.