Ok so we all know how PCs get a little money when they make new characters. Thats all fine and dandy. My question is should PCs be allowed to sell back gear they they wont use? I've heard arguments from both sides of the fence from my payers and I myself think the starting wealth should only be used to buy other equipment and they can then sell it back when they are actually playing in character. Has anyone else run into this sort of problem? If you have can you offer some advice?

Keep in mind the rule that says acolytes can purchase equipment at the listed cost without having to make a roll for availability.

Hi Clutch,

while I would not grant a PC total freedom in regard to re-selling equipment before the game starts, I would not completely cancel it out. Instead, if a player wants something special it allow him to make some suggestions. Suggestions need approval, so they cannot purchase things you feel wrong.

I think I would allow it; I don't see a real downside, and I know I would resent having some of the equipment options forced on me if I was a player.

One of the groups I played with asked the same question. I pretty much Houseruled this: I figured out the total cost of the combined character's starting equipment (minus the necessities like Infantry Primer, Merc License, Sactioning Brand, and other important items that didn't have a cost) in regards to the highest possible score and lowest possible score, and computed the average. I offered them the option to take the average, or take the starting equipment listed in the book. I mean, with the possibility of centillion (300+ zero's) number of people in the Imperium, your chances of having the same equipment should be pretty slim.

Nameless2all said:

I think i get where you're coming from but I have a few questions. When you say highest possible score and lowest possible score is that in terms of which items they choose? Like when the guardsman has the choice of either the flintlock pistol or las pistol? Is this also taking into consideration the additional starting throne gelt the acolytes get?

The main reason why im kind of against this is that players can sell all of their stuff in the beginning of the game and get pretty good or even amazing gear from rank 1. Well then where do they have to go from there? I remember when I first played DH and after our mission was completed we got paid and then we swapped out our used/ damaged/ crappy gear for better peices that had more function/were more reliable etc… If they get that stuff in the beginnning of the game it kind of takes away from that "I've reached the mountaintop and here is my reward" mindset.

Clutch_Halthos said:

Yep, that's exactly what I'm saying. Since I don't have my notes with me I just had to do a quick calculation, so if you add it up and it's slightly different, my apologies.

Let's take the cleric for example. When taking in his highest possible net return of equipment (getting full price for it), you get 185 for high and 110 for low, which averages to 148 (rounding fractions up). You then add in his starting thrones, a whopping 305-350. Really isn't that bad. The items I did not remove/sell from the starting equipment package were clothes, necklace, backpack, candles, and the charm (though I always offered my characters something different rather than just a skull, like a spent Astartes Bolt shell, a vial reported to be of Saint Celestial's tears, etc).

Now let's take the Arbitrator. High is 390, low 225, average 308. Max starting thrones 70….. Keeping clothes and Arbitrator ID.

Finally we will compute the guardsmens. High 505, low 405, average 455. Max starting thrones 80. He also keeps his clothes, rations, and merc lisc/inf. primer/suicide bomb.

Clutch_Halthos said:

This theory, though slightly valid, is ultimately flawed. Why you ask?

1) The cleric's starting thrones and the Noble's, because the later gets to double his/her starting income These characters starting worth is over 300 (or close to it), which easily buys anything mundane at character creation, compared to everyone else character. When you allow all the PC's to sell their items upon character creation, the starting thrones are about even IMHO. Cleric possible max is 498, arbitrator 378, guardsman 538, etc.

2) If they do happen to buy a chain sword, bolt pistol etc, well….. they can't use it effectively. Getting a -20 to use it is the price they get for purchasing it. Not to mention, sooner or later stuff will break, get damaged, stolen, lost, etc and need to be replaced. I think this occurs more often at low levels (IMO) because characters are just learning the investigation side of things, are more likely to make mistakes, and are more likely to get into situations that are over their heads.

3) Anything they do purchase is either a) similar to items the character would of started with or b) could of purchased already. Mono upgrade cost is 40, red laser sight cost is 50, etc. so already a starting guardsman pc can purchase one of these. And if he spends all his money on weapons, he then has no armour. Something he can look foward to purchasing later.

I personally don't see a major flaw in this system. I see why they did this though, so the system couldn't be abused. Is my system flawed? Yes. But so is the starting character equipment. Why would every Cleric in the Imperium have a charm that looks like a skull for crying out loud.

I see your point. But both my players and I know that they aren't that stupid to buy a weapon for which they dont have the trainng. Especially at rank 1. Will the guardsman buy a bolt-pistol? no. He'll probably swap out his lasgun for an armageddon. Or the assassin who swaps out the compact las pistol (a 100 throne value) for something like a hecuter 9/5.

I could pull something like the weapons they are using need to be registered, or that in certain areas they arent allowed, but that just seems like I'm taking something away from them for an arbitrary reason.

I think what im going to do is rule that they will be given their starting gear, and if they wish to upgrade their gear they pay the difference with their starting thrones. Ex, if a guardsman wanted to swap his lasgun for a longlas he's pay 25 thrones from his starting wealth.

I allow my players to do swaps of things 'for character reasons'. So for example one of my current players is a scum. She really wanted to start with an axe rather than whatever a scum gets to start with. I saw no reason why a scum couldn't have an axe so allowed her to swap some bits out to get enough 'thrones' to get one. I think if you apply some common sense and your players don't try to take the piss then some swaps can be good for them to personalise their character. I probably wouldn't let a guardsman swap his las rifle - he is supposed to have come from combat duty and wouldn't be allowed to have anything else. I probably would allow an assassin to swap out guns and if they wanted to swap everything else out to get a good gun then fine. He takes the risk that someone gets up close and personal before he is used to carrying a sword as well.

No swapping everything they own for a power sword, that is obviously silly. To be honest I don't think anything a starting character could afford, even with Nameless2all's changed rule would break the early game. But if it did you can always find tougher things to throw at them.

Clutch_Halthos said:

You failed to notice my 1) statement. The cleric and Noble characters can already do this. Why punish the rest? All I'm doing now is evening the table with the other archetypes in the game. If you are really worried about them meta-gaming, then say Rare/Scarce items and higher can't be purchases without GM approval at character creation. I really like your idea though about just swapping things out. It's simpler, quicker, and hardly any worries about someone meta-gaming. Anyhoot, best of wishes to you and your crew.

BrotherKane said:

The guardsman doesn't mean he started out in the Imperial Guard as a grunt, and now works for Inquisition. The "Guardsman" archetype is just a generic warrior. He could be a mercenary, and ex pdf trooper, a penal legionnaire, a want a be bounty hunter, a etc. Why would all these characters start with the same weapon? That's just my opinion though.

I suppose it would also be possible to allow players to swap gear, paying the difference in thrones, but limiting the gear to a certain level of availability. Nameless2all's suggestion is also good. But anyway, if it becomes too much of a problem to you, just tell them to keep the gear they have for the time being, it's not that bad, not yet.

Unless the game is very structured (like all the PCs are SoB novices), I am a fan of letting PCs sell their gear and get new stuff, AS LONG as it makes sense. Like I had an arbites who worked undercover more, so I swapped around some gear to make her look different