I'm fairly new to the game, playing with someone who has a bit more experiance and I had a few of interesting scenarios.

I was playing with some "sand snake" characters who give each other Traits. One such was "all sand snake characters gain the vengeful trait". Upon losing a military challenge my character gave all other sand snake characters the vengeful trait, so they would all have the option of standing, however I wanted to opt for that character to die. So does that character become "moribund" yet still allow the other characters to stand before I place the card in the dead pile, or would the character be dead before the "vengeful" trait would take effect?

Along the same lines, if the plot card for all knelt characters cannot be killed is in play, would you select a character to die before or after "vengeful" takes effect? i.e. Defend with all characters and lose the challenge, no one is eligable to be killed, so I then stand all of my characters for losing the challenge, or having lost the challenge I optionally stand cards, and then have to select a standing card to die?

The other scenario which worked to my opponents advantage doubly was that he had a certain trait - I think it was the Greyjoy raider, which said "raiders do not kneel to attack". This ability worked for the raider in question as well as the other raiders. However I had a bandit card with the text that "bandits get +1 attack", but I was told that this ability did not include himself (card in question was cost 3 with a strength 3 already). I might be clutching at straws here, but neither card said " other raiders/bandits" so why should one apply to itself, while the other does not?

Unfortunatly I can't remember the name of the cards, but I suspect some people will know what I am talking about.

Pendarric said:

Are you talking about Obella Sand, who has the text, "Sand Snake characters you control gain a icon and vengeful"? If Obella is killed for claim, she remains physically on the board, though moribund, until all passive and Response effects from the challenge are resolved, then she is physically placed in the dead pile. Her text will continue to affect cards in play until she is physically placed in the dead pile. So, even if she is killed for claim, your Sand Snake characters will still be considered to have Vengeful, and can stand for that lost military challenge.

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

I am not aware of any card that says "Raider characters do not kneel to attack."

I am also not aware of any card with either the trait "Bandit" or the text "Bandit's get +1 attack." The closes I know of is Euron's Enforcers, which is a Raider that gets +1 for each Raider character you control, but that is a 5-cost, 3-STR character.

So, if you can figure out what the actual cards are, maybe I can give you a more definitive answer.

Still without knowing the cards we can answer that if a card like Maester Aemon says " Response : Kneel Maester Aemon to save a Night's Watch character from being killed" and he himself has the NW trait, that he can kneel to save himself. The same ideology applies to cards like Hoster Tully who has the text " House Tully characters get +1 STR" and since he himself also has the House Tully trait, the +1 does apply to himself.

That said, I don't know what cards you are refering to either. In regards to Greyjoy I don't see any cards that affect any trait to allow them to gain "don't kneel to attack." I did find Asha Greyjoy, where only she doesn't kneel depending on the condition of her text. There is also the Power of Faith plot that gives holy crested characters a MIL icon and enables them to attack without kneeling.

Slothgodfather said:

So while it is true that when a card refers to a trait it has, it can include itself, the specific wording makes it possible that when it refers to a trait it has, it does not include itself. That's why we need to know what the specific cards are before we can give a definitive answer.

Yea they are a good example of cards working of "others" similarly traited. Guess we'll have to wait and see….

… I'm not a fan of the waiting game…

Obella Sand was the card with the "give all Sand Snakes vengeful" text. It is useful to know that the morribund state does not negate the card's text. Is a moribund card moved to the dead pile at the end of the particular challenge, or after all challenges from a player?

I just noticed that there is a card Randyl Tarly that has the text "War characters you own get +1 str" (this was not the card I played, but same idea). He is a war character himself. At cost 3 and strength 3, his own text makes him a str 4 character. My opponent's arguement was that this text should only apply to "other war characters" since it is rare that you can buy a card with higher str than the gold cost unless there is some negative effect as well (an example of an exception being the hound which is only 1 gold for a 4 str card, but he can is put back in your hand is any characters strength is reduced)…

I am looking for the offending cards. I think I must have been Greyjoy with a bonus of +1 str for raiders, but I can't find the particular one, I should be playing later in the week, and I will look through the deck.

My opponent may have been Lannister, where Clansmen had some ability… for example Timett Son of Timett is a Clansman with the text "Knelt Clansman characters you control cannot be killed." Shagga Son of Dolf is a Clansman with the text "Knelt Clansman characters you control can be declared as defenders during Military challenges." So with both of those in play Timett would save himself from dying, and Shagga would be able to defend military challenges while knelt?

I wasn't too concerned during the game in question because there was only going to be one winner (my first time as Greyjoy), but it seemed that my opponent thought that his text should apply to the card itself and those with the same trait, but that mine would not.

I would also wonder about King Joffrey. He is allowed to take one gold cost per turn and put it on himself, any gold on him is then counted as additional strength. Character cards are not taxed, so he can get very strong, very fast. However, can you spend that gold if you so chose to?

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

Your opponent is making up rules. If the card meant "other WAR characters," it would say " other WAR character." You can't make a blanket ruling on what you think "should" happen. Not everyone sees "should" the same way. Since there is nothing in the rules that says "beneficial card effects do not apply to the cards they are on," you can't go making up such a rule.

Pendarric said:

Ask your friend if a 3 cost, 3-STR character with a negative effect would be able to affect itself. The "cost-to-STR" ratio doesn't tell you anything about how effects work - unless the effect specifically refers to the cost or STR of the character.

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

Then you need to introduce him to Northern Cavalry Flank and Northern Infantry, both of which cost 4 gold, have 5 STR, War, MIL & POW icons, Deadly, No attachments except Siege and on top of that, don't have a negative effect, but a positive one. If he needs to cheat to beat a newbie, then shame on him (and more shame for needing to). I wholeheartedly agree with Ktom on his interpretation of "what should be" (that is, a load of bovine excretion).

Thanks guys, that is really helpful. A few (simpler?) questions.

If a standing character has influence, and you nominate them to die as part of a military claim, now they are moribund, can you still kneel that card to pay the cost of triggering an event?

Also Areo Hotah has the text "Response: After you lose a challenge by 4 or more total STR, kneel Areo Hotah to choose and kill 1 character." Can he trigger this from a moribund state?

Ser Jorah Mormont has the text "After Ser Jorah Mormont leaves play, all characters you control get -1 STR until the end of the phase." If you have a duplicate, so the duplicate goes to the dead pile, does this trigger since a copy of the card left the field, or is it only when the last duplicate leaves play? Does "leaves play" mean from the table, or does it include being discarded to satisfy an intrigue claim? Had this card been stolen by another player and leaves play, does the -1 str effect the player who had control of the card, or the player who owned the card?

Going moribund does not stop a card being able to use, or being used to pay for costs afaik. The only thing they cant do is change moribund destination, again, afaik.

Duplicates are considered to have no title, traits, text or icons, they are more or less just blank pieces of cardboard. So when the dupe of ser jorah is removed the game dosen't recognise it as ser jorah but a generic dupe, thus his passive is not triggered.

Awaiting Ktom to explain why im worng (i will almost certainly be on something )

Underworld40k said:

You're not wrong! Although there's another thing moribund cards can't do: not be moribund any more, but that's kind of tautological.

Underworld40k said:

For example, with the influence character killed for claim but able to pay for an event - that works if the event is a Response to winning/losing the challenge (or something else happening as part of challenge resolution), but it does not work if the event is an "Any Phase" or "Challenge" effect because the character hits the dead pile before you can play the event.

ktom said:

OK to quote an earlier example the Master Aemon text "kneel to save a Night Watch character" will allow Master Aemon to be "saved" from moribund and is retained as an active card in a kneeling position.

Areo Hotah would be able to kneel whilst in moribund status in order to kill another character "on his way out".

Correct about Areo Hotah. Aemon's ability, on the other hand, is a save response (because it contains the word "save"), so you use it after an effect that will make him moribund is initiated (at the same time you would play a cancel response), but before he really becomes moribund.

I think the raider card that caused me to ask the questions was Euron's Enforcers. Looking online their cost is 5 with str 3 but +1 for each raider card (so str 4 to start since they are a raider). I didn't see it when we played last night, but I am sure it was cost 3 on the card when I played it, yet it looks like the cost should be 5.

I just wanted a quick opinion on "shadows" cards. I had Meera Reed in shadows and was saving her to bring out when attacked because an opponent had Aggo's Akhr which gave him +1 str for each character in the dead pile, which was mounting up. So had he attacked me I could have brought her out and nullified that card for one round… However it was deemed that I had to bring cards out of shadows at the start of the phase, or the start of my own challenges, I couldn't bring a card out of shadows at any time as though it were a player event. The rules do seem to indicate that you have to play the card at the start of a phase… but surely the point of having something in shadows is so you can bring it out when needed, otherwise why not just play the card?

Well, your example with Meera Reed has two responses, I think.

1. Meera Reed's text specifically allows her to come out during any Player Action window (pretty sure that terminology is correct). So, when someone declared a challenge and kneel's attackers, you could absolutely bring her out of Shadows by paying 1 gold and she could then blank a card's text (two if it's Winter) and also participate in the Challenge (once the attacker declares any Stealth) as a Defender.

2. Shadows cards, in general, can only come out of Shadows at the very beginning of a phase before ANY actions have taken place. And then you can only bring one card out of Shadows per phase (barring any specific card effects like Young Griff that would allow you to bring something else out of Shadows). Meera is just one a few Shadows cards that have special language on their card that allows you to bring them out at other times.

One thing I can't tell with your explanation though is what you were hoping to blank. I don't see how bringing Meera out would have ended or nullified any Challenge - but it could nullify the effects of the challenge or any bonuses or modifiers during the challenge (depending on what card you blanked and what the text specifically said).

Pendarric said:

It is true that the only time you can bring a card out of Shadows as a game effect is at the beginning of the phase. However, if you are using a triggered effect to bring a card out of Shadows - as opposed to the rules description for for doing so - you can use that triggered effect any time you are allowed to use the effect. Think of all those cards that let you reveal a new plot card by triggering an effect; by using those, it's not like you can only reveal plot cards during the plot phase.

So, yes, you could use the basic Shadow mechanic to bring Meera out of Shadows at the beginning of the phase, but if you do, you don't get to blank anything because it is her effect - not the Shadow mechanic - that talks about blanking things. That effect that brings her out of Shadows (and then blanks cards) is an "Any Phase" effect, though, so you can use it any time you can use an "Any Phase" effect - which is not limited to the start of your own challenges (I have no idea where you guys came up with that one….).

So, you were free to do exactly what you were doing 0 hold off on triggering the "Any Phase" effect that would bring Meera out of Shadows and allow you blank a card until it was most advantageous to you. Note, however, that if she didn't have a triggered effect that specifically brought her out of Shadows, you would only be able to bring her out at the beginning of the phase.

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

doulos2k said:

Pendarric said:

[Removed because ktom explained it better while I was typing.]

Meera is a pretty complicated card and has been the subject of many a rules discussion. The most important points were pretty well summarized here .

OK so Meera's text is "Any Phase: Bring Meera Reed out of Shadows and into play by paying th rest of her gold cost. Then choose 1 non-plot card (2 instead if it is Winter) and treat its printed text box as if it were blank until the end of the phase. " The "Any Phase" part makes it a triggered event to happen at my leisure (in a player action window). Cool - so I could have blanked out the attachment.

Out of interest - duplicates are played "free" when you have them in your hand. Would a second copy of Meera have to be put into shadows before it can be played as a duplicate? (Then since it is a duplicate there is no additional cost to take the card out of shadows.)

If the response is triggered to move her back to shadows - would the duplicate go leaving one copy, or would both copies go into shadows (can they be brought out together?). If the duplicate of Meera dies, would meera have to return to shadows (i.e. she dies and returns to shadows in the same movement?). If Meera had already knelt, but a challenge was lost and she went to shadows, I can trigger her even if I am attacked again to bring her out of shadows - would she be standing?

Oh and one more for now. I can't remember the lady card, but the ability allowed her to take 1 claim from a character card when her house loses a challenge. When playing another player who has a character with Renown, is renown awarded first then the loser can steal the power, or is the "first player" allowed to resolve the order of these two simultanious "passive effects"?

Pendarric said:

With unique Shadows characters, you can do it either way. You can put a dupe in Shadows by normal means or you can attach it directly for free during the Marshalling phase. If you bring the dupe out of Shadows, it attaches to the copy already in play as with any dupe. There are reasons to do both, depending on the card, your deck, and the state of the board. If you're running City of Shadows, for instance, there will be times when you might sometimes want to Marshall a dupe into Shadows to maintain your minimum of 1 card in Shadows so you can get power for unopposed challenges (having Dragon Pit or Shadow Enchantress in play or when your opponent's Distinguished Boatswain is beating you up would be other examples). Obviously, if it's an important character, the free dupe is often the choice you'll make.

With Meera, it's a double-edged sword. To re-use her ability, you have to send her back to Shadows. If she has a dupe on her, it gets discarded. On the other hand, if she dies, the dupe is just as much a dead card as any other unique would be (except, of course, that you can put it into/leave it in Shadows for those other effects above).

You forgotten Lady is Ellaria Sand. "Vengeful. Response: After you lose a challenge, move 1 power from any character to Ellaria Sand." And, yes, since Renown is awarded as a Framework Event, before Responses, you can indeed use her to take the power your opponent just got for Renown.

Amuk said:

OK, so renown is part of the framework, then the response comes after, so you can always steal the renown power. That card basically won the game since between my two opponents one had renown, and the other was regularly taking it from him… I got Jamie Lannister out, but there was no point in loading him up with power (unless I could get 4 in one round to allow me to kill Elessa).

So what was the opinion about putting Meera's duplicate in the dead pile? Does that count as a Stark character leaving play because a new card is in the dead pile, or not because Meera is still in play.

If I had chosen to kill a different character, and Meera returned to shadows - would both the "in play" card and the duplicate return to shadows or just the duplicate? Out of interest, if there were two Meera cards with different rules, and she was returned to shadows, would you have the option of bringing them out in a different order so the other card is the in play card?

If Meera had attachments - would those attachments be discarded when she returns to shadows?

Oh and If Meera is in the dead pile, can you play a duplicate of her into shadows (but can never bring her in to play)?

Pendarric said:

I think it was mentioned above that duplicates are considered to be blank cards. They have no text, traits, or titles while they are in play. If they leave play, a duplicate leaves play - not a character, attachment, location, etc. So no, when a duplicate leaves play, it will never count as a Stark character leaving play. (It has nothing to do with the fact that Meera is still in play - it has to do with the fact that, as a duplicate, it is not considered to be a character or have the Stark affiliation.)

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

Pendarric said:

You'll probably get a lot further in figuring out these Shadows situations if you do not think of the Shadows area as some sort of "in-play, but not really" area. Think of it instead as a "second hand." Cards in Shadows are a lot more like cards in your hand than they are like cards in play.

OK thanks. Useful to think of Shadows as a second hand rather than in play. I was just curious if returning to shadows which is not dead or discarded, and in the sence that it is the "active" copy of a unique card that she could retain her attachments. I did assume the answer would be that she loses all attachments.

Going back to Elissa Sand - if a character is immune to character abilites - would that include Elissa being able to take power from that card?