Boss Gitsmasha said:

They simply understand that there are very different views on what a Moritat should use. One extreme is that they won't touch anything that isn't a blade, another is that they will use anything that has a sharp edge. Group and individual opinions vary a lot.

In two different games I had two different people playing Moritat's. One was very liberal, the other very conservative. The liberal one, with GM's approval, ended up finding and using an Eldar Shuriken pistol in one hand while stabbing people with a mono sword in the other. The Conservative one wouldn't use anything but best quality mono swords. Both were very effective, both played very differently. The rest of the party, who were all gun lovers, Arbitrator, shooty Assassin, Guardsman, and Tech Priest, groaned regularly during games with the conservative one about getting kills before the blender ran over everyone in the fight and took all the kills. A pair of BQ mono swords in the hands of a melee focused Assassin is nasty.

I sent another e-mail, asking for a check-up on the dartcaster (which would give another option, as it is it edged, in the description, as well as doing Rending damage). And there are still Xenos weapons (and some archeotech ones possibly).

If you want to treat them properly, make drawing blood a major part of the weapons they use as well as RENDING damage, which strikes a logical balance.

Also, giving something like the Fleshrender talent to Reapers, does give them the late game boost and makes their sword more powerful than a chainsword, still silent, still cheaper to BQ, can be Lathed and while not as high damage output as a powersword, it rolls 10s around 50% of the time, compared to the 10% chance the Power Sword showed. (I did 20 sets of rolling for each weapon, Lathe Sword with Fleshrender/Bloody Edge VS Powersword) So it doesn't have the raw power, but it is more reliable in damage. AS WELL, as Moritat CAN USE Power Swords, so with that, they can have either reliability with the option for shock/tox dispenser/sanctified/lathe AND to use a power sword with a powerfield.

So the way FFG treats them, yes, they do suffer a bit, but a GM can come up with a variety of solutions.

(P.S. It is easy to ask FFG for rules questions, the button is at the bottom of the screen. And with the e-mail I got, and the ruling on power swords not getting tearing. Unless it is in Erratta, it isn't "binding (and even then you can houserule it), it should be looked on as suggestions more than BINDING)

Okay, not to get mouth-breathy here, or fluffy, but why do you guys suppose FFG hates Moritat? According to fluff, they are a cult that worships not blood but killing with a blade. Their thing about bladed weapons makes perfect sense to me. How can you practice the 219 cuts on your way to perfection with a freaking pistol, even if it shoots little (alien) discs that happen to have a sharp edge? Now, I know that you're more arguing the rules as game mechanics and that's totes fine with me, but as far as I'm concerned the Moritat are a cult. They're a bit crazy, and I personally would not be down with one of my players using a shuricat. It needs to be up close and personal. It's not killing, it's praying.

But you know, I'm a geek like that and I often find that I care much less about rules than my players or colleagues when I play. I want it to be cool.

The saying is as the power level of them starts off powerful early on (access to chainswords early on essentially, but cheaper), but as the group gets chainswords and other melee weapons, the Moritat's choices for weapons are still restricted. It becomes worse when you view ranged weapons, they are essentially limited to bows and crossbows. The only of which can compete effectively (with reload rates and damage) is the composite bow, which doesn't get many options without minor houserules (mono arrows +2 pen, 1 throne each, as well as letting them be dipped in poison). So the problem is simply scaling to other players with their equipment selection and restrictions (especially if you play it hard on the disdaining ALL tech (including NV goggles and so on)). So while they are easy to fix by houserules, by RaW it seems there is no "love" for them. Which is a shame, as they are an interesting death cult and offer a unique role-playing experience.

Yeah, I think they are at a pretty serious disadvantage at higher levels, but that's what you get for being absolutely frickin amazing in melee. Not to be a ****, but I don't think I'd even want them to use a crossbow for the same reason I mentioned above. It's too impersonal. But, I dunno. I'm probably a **** to my players.

Oh they always prefer to engage the target in melee, but sometimes that is not the best option by far. And yes they are awesome in melee, but by end game, so is any other melee focused assassin and they get the same benefits of power weapons AND they can still use everything else. Moritat specifically don't get any amazing melee bonus besides tearing (which is basically a silent chainsword). Their biggest late game advantage is to get several talents somewhat earlier, which helps, but isn't a long term fix.

I may have overreacted. But it's still frustrating to have your arsenal limited, even if it's in the name of fluff. It's certainly convinced me that I'm not going to roll a Moritat again. Next time I make an assassin I'm giving him a sniper rifle.

I can see your points, guys. I guess I hadn't thought of it that way. My games tend to crawl along fairly slowly (my buddy and I switch out GMing one day a week, meaning I only run my game once every two weeks) so frankly we've never had anybody even in Rank 6 yet… A lot of the end-game stuff hasn't even become a factor, as they're just now coming into some good talents. I wish sometimes that they got more serious about combat effectiveness, but they do pretty well. Our best battles are the most cinematic ones, so I always push them towards trying to be more like that. Sometimes they get it, sometimes not, but the Moritat was the most fun in combat for sure.

As Gittmasha already posted what I showed him privately, I may as well post the response.

I asked about explosive arrows (I have heard Moritat can use them which sounded illogical), expanded on dartcasters and asked about the chances of them doing a small supplement expanding on the Moritat (and such)

I'd say no on the explosive arrows (they work via explosives, not cutting). Dart Caster still doesn't feel right but looking over their starting list, they have crossbows which are pretty much the same kind of weapons so I'll allow it

I think some more coverage for assassins of all sorts is a worthy goal indeed. We'll see what we can do here in the future.

I also have to say I really do love FFG. They make some great products AND they have that wonderful option to ask them questions directly (and these cool forums). So, I may be annoyed with some aspects, but overall I do give a double thumbs up to them.

Explosive arrows should really be more powerful than they are. It seems silly how they're totally inferior to monomolecular arrows.

Yes, the Moritat works a different way but thats we took him for. We did not only take this fancy tearing and reaper stuff, we took also the lore. So dump this lore because we notice that we are on high level not that outstanding badass anymore is some kind of… gna…

I'll show you that even a Moritat can wield an incredible weapon. (Thoug I must admit that you may ask your GM to allow an Upgrade form Into the Storm of Rouge Trader)

MC Long Sabre (2h)

Damage: 1D10+4 (Rending/Holy)

Penetration: 5

Specials: Tearing, Balanced, Toxic, Sanctified

Upgrades: Lathe, Tox Dispenser, Sanctified Weapon

In my opinion this Weapon is a worthy tool for a High-Level Moritat.

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Well, yeah, but Moritat can't use them anyway, so moot point. Though if you were to buff, I would give them a blast radius.

And FieserMoep, I believe most folks who do Moritat like them overall. Later on feeling you are not able to help out the group and restrained IS an annoying feeling.

And yeah, the Sanctified/Lathe/Tox Dispenser Combo (maybe even shocking?) is a great Moritat combo. But if you give a Moritat something like Flesh Render than they can keep up with other players and still excel in their chosen field.

Well, I personaly wouldnt give the Moritat an additional Die on Tearing. In my opinion this would be some kind of to strong and outclassing every other melee character.

With tearing on the given weapon the moritat combines the benefits of chain and power weapons and has, with the right gear, a decent advantage. With Flesh Render this advantage would be very strong if not to strong and outclassing. With this weapon I posted I never felt week and I used a combat knife with the same upgrades and it worked realy good. Especialy the Toxic was quite usefull and with sanctified you can shine in the most dire situation. I know that this is nothing you can compare to a high level psyker but atleast this weapon makes you on par with any Bolter/Plasmagun a Guardsman can carry.

Just Imagine a Moritat with Lightning attack that rolls 3 times 3d10 and picks the highest. Thats around 7 Damage with a realy high chance on Rightous Fury.

PS: And about the Shocking, I left that out, though it is usefull its to much hightech. In my opinion the Moritat must be able to maintain his weapon on his own. Any energie generator or so would affect this.

Well, the tearing doesn't apply to power weapons, the ranged weapons it works on are limited. And still not against daemons, machines, etc. But some late level buff around the time they get to reaper would be good. And Moritat are MEANT to outclass normal PCs in melee, their swords are basically chainswords when not every PC has mono. But when players start getting chainswords it evens out and THEN when they power swords the gap closes and they get somewhat outclassed in some ways. And this is before ranged weapons which is basically in-between Bows, Crossbows, Throwing Knive/Stars, possibly the widower and MAYBE some xenos weapons.

Well, Moritat can be masters of the Blade as any other Assassin can. Their speciality though is that they have recieved special training with primitvie weapons wich is why they get tearing.

I dont see any reason why they should be further buffed if you compare them to other Assassins or Guardsman. They have their specialty and the corresponding talents but they have no right to outclass a dedicated melee Assassin that uses Power-Swords. And that would happen if they recieve flesh render.

This is a drawback of the package you took, other packages require you to sacrifice some characteristics. Thats how it is intended. And when the other PCs get their Chain Weapons the Moritat can spend the money on better Craftmanship at ease. And when they recieve Power Swords the Moritat should be able to get his hand on some Lathe Blades. And at that level its quite easy to get some of the other upgrades I mentioned. I would ALWAYS prefer one of those blades I posted over a Power Sword If i was playing a melee character.

Just look at the Power Longsword. 1d10+6 Pen6 and Power Field. That is laughable against the Long Sabre I posted. Yes, the Moritat has its drawbacks, but those are intentioned and the Moritat can still fullfill its role perfectly. And for Range take the bows, I dont see here any problem? Thats Roleplay? You play the role of a Moritat. So stick with "primitive" Weapons or break with your "Cult".

For example I play a Secutor with the Sollex Background and I only use Las Weapons even on high Levels where Autocannons etc. would be more effective. But I do what my Character would do and how he acts makes him a very strong fighter because he knows how to use his advantages and how to make the best out of that what he has.

In Roleplay a voluntary drawback never justifies a buff just to be a combat badass.

Atleast that is my definition.

Thats just the thing, when I personally think of a Moritat I think hands down uncontested melee. Period. I think they SHOULD outclass every other melee character and play their role. True you will have your super strong guardsmen or secutor tech priests (like my first character), but when push comes to shove the characters do need to play their role. When a psyker is outclassing the dedicated melee character, thats a little weak you know?

While I do recognize that adding fleshrender may look like "there goes the assassin again stealing all of our kills" but think of it this way, what will an acolyte be facing at those later levels? Not your puny little cultists or grots. No they'll probably be facing ork nobz in mega armor with a squad of shoota boyz on bikes. So yeah your d10+ 4+ s pen 5 Tearing and toxic looks good on paper, but is it practical in those types of situations? The shooty assassin will be high on a perch shooting down with the nomad and maybe the guardman is in the jeep ferrying in the Secutor and the Templar psyker, but then theres the Moritat whos looking mighty squishy in that situation. Thats an extreme situation, but it's possible. The whole part about giving them flshrender was to help them compete against the shooty characters.

And to be quite honest, yeah SOME of the other background packages(not all of them) come with drawbacks but those are usually mitigated later on in the game. And can you just "spend money on better craftsmanship"? I have never seen a silk purse made out of a sows ear. If theres a common quality sword, you may be able to reforge it into a higher quality but that will take a long time. Just things to keep in mind.

Ive also been doing some tinkering with the bloody edge trait. and thinking of making it something of an "evolving" trait if you will. Something like they are learning more precise cuts or different slicing angles as they progress. Mechanic wise it would be something to the effect of:

1-3: Tearing

4-5: Razor sharp, Tearing

6-7: Fleshrender (although i still like them paying 500 xp for this) and razor sharp

8: something else (maybe)

Again thats a work in progress and might be a little bit too overkill, but it's something i think fits with the character scheme.

You'd think that a high level Techpriest would prefer a plasma gun or something instead of a lasgun. Unless he's using a Lascannon or something. At which point I ask, what's he fighting, tanks? If it's just guys in armor a plasma cannon would be better, thanks to Blast.

Also, you know how you outclass a Moritat in melee? Brute force, like a power fist or a thunder hammer. The power longsword is not worth it in any capacity; the generic power sword is better because it allows you to hold it in one hand, and all you're really missing is +1 damage. However, power fists and thunder hammers do obscene amounts of damage, and thanks to their status as blunt weapons, Moritat can't use them. If you're worried about parrying attacks, pack a power sword in your other hand, or, if you can't afford it, take a shield.

Well, then you realy wanna make a "simple" Sword wielder on par with a dedicated tank-hunter weapon like the Power Fist that is normaly only obtainable for high ranking personel or even like thunder hammers that, in their bigger version, are only used by extrem powerfull individuals, Space Marine Champions or Terminators? Yes, makes totaly sense.

Well, tell me what Paragraph I missed where the Moritats is discribed as a dedicated tank/heavy Infantry hunter? last time I checked he was a shadowy, swift killer that uses silent "primitive" weapons to do his work.

And even if those weapons were no blunt weapons the Moritat wouldnt be able to use them with his tearing power. His tearing applies to "bladed" weapons aka cutting weapons. Even if a Power-Sword looks like an ordinary Sword it is not cutting with its "blade". Power weapons emmit an energy field that layers around the real weapon and is used for cutting, thats the reason why Mono etc. does not work on power Blades. And so the moritats profession could not kick in, becaus there is nothing he can "tear" because the powerfield simply makes the flesh "disappear", though the process is quite more complex. A power weapon is so extremly "sharp" that it cant "grip" the flesh to tear it away like a chain weapon would do it.

I dont get it, you voluntary took a Package with Pros and Cons and while the Pros made you badass everything was okay, but when the cons hit in you cry for balance? Thats hipocritical and has nothing to do with roleplay.

When your Moritat realises in game that his art is weak and not enough, let him break with his oath and become a regular assassin. But if your moritat stays true to his believes then play him as intended. Faith does not only include welfare, it brings challanges to you too. Thats the interissting part of such characters. Not the powerplay some people seem to have in mind when they took those fancy tearing and reaper talents…

So an eventual boost when they hit reaper level is not good? Something to make up for their restrictions? (like they give up guns/blunt weapons/etc. and get tearing which does last a while, but not forever) They don't need something huge, but death cultists are supposed to be GOOD at what they do, which includes cutting folks open with blades. When they are outclassed in every other situation AND melee (their specialty), they DO need a buff

Well, they get something when they hit Level 6 (Moritat Reaper):

- Meditation

- Lots of Hatred Talents

- Early unlock of several high-end Talents (Wall of Steel etc.)

- Several usefull Knowledge Skills (even one forbidden Lore)

- Two extra Sound Constitution

- And peer Inquisition!

- Last but not least a !-!Unique!-! Melee attack to show the Moritats melee Skills: The Reaping!

Boss Gitsmasha said:

He's Sollex. They have a thing for light/lasers.

I agree that trying to get power swords and whatnot for Moritat is gaming the system and is not RAI. BTW chainswords are bad fior an assassin because they make noise.

FieserMoep said:

Power fists can be acquired by Imperial Guard sergeants, hardly "high" ranking personnel as far as 40k is concerned. It's Very Rare, same Rarity as a Lathe blade. Thunder hammers can be and are used by human Inquisitors; they are in no way exclusive to the Space Marines. If you really want to get Astartes weapons involved then Moritat may as well run around with Relic Blades or Sacris Claymores.

The problem with Moritat is that "primitive" weapons are easily outclassed by power weapons and their ilk, and a regular non-Moritat assassin could do the same job with a power sword, and pack a gun at the same time. If you want to stay stealthy, then leave the power sword off until the moment you strike; your victim's scream as you run him through is probably going to be louder than the power field anyway. Moritat get no bonuses from chain or power weapons either, plus they still have the disadvantage of not being able to use a gun or a blunt weapon. So not only do they lose their advantage, but they can't even stay as effective in melee as a regular assassin with a power fist.

Moritat need balance because they suffer crippling drawbacks in exchange for a nice bonus, but the bonus becomes irrelevant at higher levels, where their proficiency with primitive weapons becomes moot at a level where a regular assassin could take a chainsword or a power sword AND a gun, staying just as lethal while being more versatile. FFG ruled that Moritat can't even use stake crossbows without the Willpower check. Why would you pay 300 XP for such a drawback?

While playing a Moritat, I felt outclassed by both the Arbitrator and her ridiculous hand cannon, and the psyker who can kill three bad guys PER TURN by shooting lightning from her brain. On top of that, the Arbitrator had far better social skills than my character. If I'm not good in combat, then frankly, what am I good for? Even at that level where the Moritat was supposed to shine, I'm still outclassed by TWO other party members in combat, and unlike them, combat is the only thing an Assassin is good at. So don't sit here and call me a hypocrite, because I was never able to be 'badass" like you said. My one advantage is negated because I'm rarely, if ever, able to get into close combat to begin with. I'd be better off with a sniper rifle.

Breaking your oaths comes with other problems too, namely that the Moritat will want you dead no matter the cost. And it also completely ruins the point of taking the package in the first place; you may as well have taken no starting package at all. Which, in retrospect, is what I should have done.

FieserMoep said:

Meditation is not very useful, Hatred costs XP and confers roleplaying disadvantages, The Reaping is worthless for how much it costs (a single parry check negates it, Lightning Attack is better), and the knowledge skills are better in the hands of an Adept or another "learned" class. You also lose Blind Fighting and many ranged weapon talents. Not to mention, you're forced onto the Death Adept route, so you're out of luck if you wanted to go Freeblade.

So, the "extremly powerfull individual" in my list does not cover Inquisitors? Strange.

And I knew that the thing with the imperial Guard officers would come… dont mix up the tabletop blance with he actual WH40k Fluff or even bolters would be complet useless against carapace armor…

And it is simply not true that Moritats get ousclassed by simple Power Swords. Just take a lathe Sword and you can use the benefits of a power and a chain weapon, dont compare them to one. Also they have a higher chance on rightous fury. And a power weapon does indeed make noise and if your victim is able to scream you did something terrible wrong as an stealthy moritat. And what people also seem to forget and what is discriped in many novels is that you can "smell" power weapons for they seem to produce Ozone.

Thoug I wonder what Assassins you play with. Power Fist? You know that the powerfield of a fist charges up to unleash its power in one devestating blow making incridible noise? How is this assassins supposed to infiltrate anything? If I need someone with a Power Fist I would take a Tech Priest and his high strength characteristic.

And why didnt you use the Composite Bow? What the problem about that? Its an awsome weapon with the Mono Arrows. It has Tearing and Accurate as a basic weapon, plus its complete silent. Strong enough to one-shot lots of enemys, the perfect range tool for infiltration.

And about the question why you would buy such a "drawback"… simple answer… because of ROLEPLAY!!! You play the Role of an Assassin that does not take advanced wepaons. How… I mean HOW CAN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT HIM NOT USING ADVANCED WEAPON! THAT IS YOUR ROLE FOR THE EMPERORS SACKE! If your assassins realises ingame that he cant do **** with this weapons, then break with the moritat. IT IS AS SIMPLE AS THAT! But if your assassin is true to his believes, stick with them and enjoy the ROLEPLAY! YOU TOOK THIS ROLE, YOU PLAY THIS ROLE! And if the moritat dont like you, then they dont like you, thats ROLEPLAY! There cant be anything good…

And if you dont get into Close Combat then play your Character who sure tries to be worht the confidence of the inquisitor. Do the lone wolf als long as you can do it and take your silence as an advanteage. The moritat was never meant to have a place in a firefight… how can you even expect that from a stealthy dedicated melee death cult assassin? Try to flank your oppenents in combat, use your agilty to climb on a roof, use concealment and silent move to sneak behind them and cut of ther heads. Try to convince your group members to try other ways of combat where you can fullfill your role.

And about the Psyker. He will outshine everyone in the aspect he focuses on. Thats why he is a psyker. Though he is a risk with his perrils and the bias he will cause in social situations.

Edit:

The Reaper is meant to be a trash killer. Dont use it on less than three weak opponents. Lightning and Swift are for single, hard targets.

You sound mad, bro.