Rightous fury in the name of the Emperor might seem mad… for the heretical!^^

I just cant stand all this Moritat threads anymore. People expect the Moritat to be always the uber-soldier. They dont care for the Fluff, they want the power of the "cheap" 300 XP Background and cry when they hit late game and others can compare to them. They completly forget the Lore of the Moritat ans use them as 0815 Killingmashines without any elegance and deceitfulness. The Moritat hates firefights, they are dishonorable and would befoul the creed of the moritat. Agility is more important then Weapon Skill, for Dodge and all this climbing stuff to bring you in advanced positon. But the people just stick with the killteam of a Psyker/Tech Priest/Guardsman and wonder why they suck in firefights…

The problem is that you can't always sneak ahead (in the case I mentioned, we were on a boat when we were attacked) and even if you can, nobody likes the "lone wolf" who goes in by themselves. In a game I once GM'd for, we had a (non-Moritat) stealthy assassin who tried to sneak ahead of the rest of the party, and the other players loudly and repeatedly expressed their contempt for him. That, plus a "never split the party" mentality, means that Moritat either don't get to play to their strengths, or they become THAT GUY in the gaming group.

Reaper do get some stuff early, but that is not enough to make up for the lack of comparable power to a fellow assassin. I understand most of your points, but they DO need some kind of buff to make them as good as a death cultist should be in their chosen field of melee. They are severely lacking in that sense, some kind of edge. And you may be right, flesh render may be too much, so why not help us find a nice one that fits the Moritat as well and their style?

(And sorry about my Arbites, to be fair, she does have her own limitations, almost only SP weapons (with a rare exception for some launchers, some flamers (blaze shells and exterminators) and possibly later some bolt) and then only really "Western Guns" Revolvers, Pump Action, Lever Action, Bolt Action, avoiding Semi/Full-Auto only like the PLAGUE)

The difference is that your character's limitations are voluntary, and merely reflect a preference, and you can choose to break them any time. Whereas my character is mechanically unable to use a prohibited weapon without a Hard (-20) Willpower check. They're not really comparable.

Well Boss you said it. Thats the reason I suggest to not play some characters in my rounds. Not because I dont like the Character or the concept behind, but the lack of group compatibility. I know of the Problem Lone Wolfs will have, either they fail or they suceed, both may not be liked by some groups.

I understand that you are in a dire situation. You like your character and want to be of some worth to the group, the Inquisitor and at the end to your self. Though you should now know that i dont like houserules that much. I would look for some ways to henhance you combate wise that are covered by the rules.

For example the Assassin hat Chem Use not without reason. Use this Skill for crafting Toxins to enhance your Arrows and Blades and if you take harder Tests perhaps your GM allows you to make stronger toxins that require a more difficult toughnes test to resist.

Imagine a Composite Bow + Mono Arrows, 1D10+2(4 if Mighty Shot) and Pen 4. Additonal it has Tearing so a good average Damage is guaranteed plus the higher chances for rigtous fury. Additional its Basic and Accurate so every 2 degrees of succes after an aim actionw ill grant you 1d10 more damage on one shot. Now enhance this with Toxic and you get another 1d10 Damage. If you get a good shoot and deal damage you can throw a maximum of 4d10 (One of them is tearing) and this is one shot without any rightous fury.

Also you can make all your blades toxic wich grants you one aditional 1d10 Damage if you cause a wound and the oponnent fails his toughness check. It tends in the same direction as Flesh Render would but atleast your opponents have a chance to resist and this additional die cant fire rightous fury.

And what about a Vibe Spear?

Its a throwing weapon that ads SB and can be monod to. But it hase other very interisting abilitys! First, its Bladed, yey! Also it has snare, so your opponent must teast Strenght or Agility or counts as Helpless (You know what that means? Its awsome). Additional the Spear has a special rule that everyone hit by it must passa challenging toughnes test or gains one Fatigue. That means -10 on all tests. And if you add toxic then your opponent hast to test 3 times!!! Likley that he will fail atleast on one.

The moritat is a clever opponent, dont try to compare with power fists when the art of killing is on your side.

I know…but she imagines her creed to be similar, except for the glorious minigun she found, that is special.

Yeah, Moritat do have to play very smart, but even then they can fall behind extremely easy

Well, what assassin does not have to act smart?

Hmm, I think of one, the Eversor… but that beast is a force of its own.

If your target is Helpless it means WS tests automatically hit them, and you roll an extra damage die in addition to your regular damage dice and add the results. And while Snared, they can't do anything but try and free themselves. Vibe Spears sound like nasty things indeed, though a mono vibe spear is 54 Thrones each. Not to mention I bet they're hard to conceal.

FieserMoep said:

But Moritat have to act VERY smart like I said, they are even more restrained.

But they should be reusable atleast.

And yes, they are not very concealable but what about a Mono/Toxic Flick Bow or Fedrid Razor Disk?

And about the Moritat Cymbel… its not that you didnt know of the drawbacks when you took them… they did not suddenly appear.

But does every player have to look at their character and say "Wow, I should look forward till ascension ranks to see if my PC is viable then" For the early parts of DH, it looks to be a very viable build, limited, but not without it's compensation.

If he plans to play this character till ascension and sets his focus on combat strenght and nothing else (which is quite boring to play): Yes.

If your character has realy one one dimension - combat - then I should realy look for that. Is there any good reason for not doing so? If I can only one thing, shouldn't i be sure that I will be usefull later in this thing? - That seems very reasonable if you ask me.

If I buy a Knife today then I will look for its quality because I want to use this knife for years. I dont want it unable to cut things, because then I cant do anything with it. - Atleast, extremly reasonalbe to look for such things.

In my Opinion the Moritat is even usefull on Ascention, I played him and know of his strenghes and weaknesses but I had a group I was able to work with.

The Moritat background exists, as far as I can tell, to make a classic archetype -- the death cultist who uses primitive weapons -- playable.

If you want to make a Moritat-style assassin swordman without the drawbacks, just DON'T TAKE THE MORITAT BACKGROUND PACKAGE. You can get all the stuff without the Bloody Edge and Reaping without it.

bogi_khaosa said:

It's playable, sure, but it loses its edge at high levels, which is the complaint here. The problem is, at a certain point, primitive weapons stop being worth using, in favor of shock/chain/power weapons, and then the Moritat loses their advantage while still suffering a heavy drawback. This would not normally be a problem, except that Moritat don't gain bonuses with power weapons like they do with primitive weapons, and even then, they can only use blades.

I've heard the argument that the power field does the real cutting instead of the blade, that it's not as "surgical", whatever that means, like that's really supposed to make a difference to the swordsman. A sword is a sword; the Moritat just know where to hit a person to do maximum damage at maximum efficiency thanks to their training. And what about other power weapons? Fractal swords are power weapons but apparently Moritat still get Tearing with those. What about Eldar power swords? Khornate Hellblades? Best-craftsmanship power swords? Wouldn't they have more subtle power fields, so as not to interfere with the "surgical" precision of the strikes? At what point does a weapon go from being "surgical" to being "not surgical"?

bogi_khaosa said:

The most sensible statement of this thread.

You can still be a melee monster as an assassin without becoming a Reaper. Reaper's are fluff. They are an additional option, and one you should pick it for roleplay reasons alone. And you know what? Then you can use guns.

If you're going to have a character that uses (primarily) primitive weapons: You should never expect to be the best. But you can expect to be interesting. (maybe) If you chose to fight a radical inquisitor who wears power armor and uses a plasma pistol/power sword combo, and all you brought along were a bow and a sword… you deserve what you get.

I completly agree with bogi_khaosa and IdOfEntity.

And back to the Powerfield issue.

All powerfields wont allow you to use tearing. To tear a wound means to shred the enemys flesh away and not just to wound him but to make him bleed like a slaughtered pig. Another problem is that of the high energy of the power field enemy Wounds can get cautarizated which preventy any huge blood loss.

Tearing in WH40k DH is a power that resebles "unnessesary" big wounds that suffer from bleeding and the destruction of inner organs. Just imagine what a Chain Sword does with a human? It tears his flesh aways. The same is possible to the moritat because of his remarkable training but with a power sword there is no tearing because of the power field that makes every cut smooth and without any tearing. And then it can cautarize.

Except the Fractal Blade has the effects of a powerfield (but does not have one) AND it deals rending damage (not energy), which strongly implies it is the blade itself that is cutting.

Cymbel said:

It's also consistent with the description. It's just a very strong, very sharp sword from a weird xeno-metal.

IdOfEntity said:

Id, Bogi, Fieser: I agree.

I play an all-rounder assassin who wields a lathe sword and a pistol. We are rank 8 and the others have power swords, power fists, storm bolters, BQ storm trooper carapace armour etc. My character is still the biggest bad ass in the group. Why? Because I role play him as the biggest bad ass in the group. Not because his damage output per hit is the highest, but because that is how I play him. He is a combat expert, he makes decisions quickly and acts on them focussing where he can have the biggest effect.

You have many options without needing a power sword. Heck, ask your GM for a custom weapon. The lathe sabres carried by a notable NPC in one of the adventures were better than the RAW version in the Inquisitor's Handbook. Just ask for an additional +1 dam and +1 pen on your sword, and crushing blow as an elite advance like I did. (Or do reapers get crushing blow? I forget?). My GM said I needed tougher weapons. I said style is important to me, how about giving my sword a boost instead and allowingthe elite advance. He said okay, too easy.

The length of this thread baffles me. There have been many effective suggestions about how to put out the damage and still keep all the Moritat bonuses. How about a great sword? With tearing that is 3d10 pick the best two. How can you complain about that? Lathe Blade Great Sword with a tox dispenser. Add crushing blow. That is meaner than a power fist. Nothing to complain about. Or two lathe swords and dual strike. Each hit will benefit from tearing, and THEN they get added together, ouch.

A Moritat with a power sword would be tough, but gets 0 points for style, and (from a metagame perspective) the Moritat is all about style.

Interrogator Z.

Style will only get you so far when there's a power-armored maniac bearing down on you.

Boss Gitsmasha said:

Not if that style is the previously mentioned Lathe Blade Great Sword with a tox dispenser (or the dual strike option).

2d10+2 (+2) (+str) Pen5, Toxic, Tearing. With the sort of melee abilities a Moritat has that should equal bye bye maniac even without the toxic.

Interrogator Z

And that easy it is.

And as an assassin it sould be no problem to dodge instead of parry.