N0-1_H3r3 said:

allofmyjoy.jpg

Also, while it doesn't really cover any new ground on the Dark Eldar, there's something I love about that post of yours at the end of page three.

Adeptus-B said:

Consider something to replicate the invul save that Wyches get in close combat, and you shouldn't need to field very large hordes. Still, being able to damage the Asartes would be a mean feat.

Kabalite Warriors might work the same, since the Dark Eldar don't group up more than 10-20 on the tabletop, Deathwatch hordes could likely be kept relatively small.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

As you're likely aware, Drive (Skimmer) isn't available to the Kabalite Warrior until Rank 2. I don't think I'd want my starting acquisition to sit in a garage until I get my learner's permit.

Blood Pact said:

The melee invulnerable save for Wyches should really be represented through a high Dodge skill and Step Aside.

Remember that Wych-knives have are 1d10+SB, Pen 3 and Razor-Sharp in the hands of a trained user (they're normal knives in the hands of the untrained), so they're not entirely useless against armoured foes. With the right combat drugs, an experienced Wych with Crushing Blow will deal 1d10+8 Pen 6 on a successful hit, enough to reliably harm a Space Marine.

As for hordes - remember that Ork units only go up to 30 in the wargame, so 20-strong isn't all that small. I'd recommend keeping Eldar and Dark Eldar hordes below Magnitude 30, and I personally tend towards a ratio of 1 soldier to 2 magnitude for the likes of Eldar Guardians and Tau Fire Warriors.

For the most part, I'd only use Kabalite Warriors, Wyches and Wracks as Hordes - the better equipped and more skilled Trueborn and Hekatrix Bloodbrides should probably be Elites.

If you're planning to use Dark Eldar as antagonists in Deathwatch, I'd recommend scattering a few of the Pain talents around, to give powerful Dark Eldar the means to boost their prowess in battle by butchering civilians and guardsmen before they reach the Astartes. Tormentor's Might and Tormentor's Fury in particular make the likes of Wyches and Incubi more deadly against the Emperor's Finest if they can drink deeply enough of the pain and dread of others beforehand.

N0-1, again let me ask: Did you intend for a DEKW to begin play with Speak Language (Dark Eldar) +10?

I've noticed that the DE character sheet in the back does not have the +10, so right now I'm thinking it's an error.

Ferau said:

The book has a number of stats for DE characters, from the adventure, some voidship stuff and equipment. But no rules for creating haemonculi, incubi, wuyches, hellions, etc. It's not a DE handbook at all and as such I'm again wondering why FFG do things like this. You can't tell me that a DE sourcebook wouldn't sell.

I'm guessing an enterprising writer saw an opportunity to do something awesome (read: No one here) and there wasn't anyone that shot down the idea, so he used as much of his page count as he could to do awesome Dark Eldar stuff. Just guessing.

I have seen several people post about not having options to make haemunculi, wyches, scourges, etc….

It seems to me, with you GM permission, such a character is relatively easily possible with material already available.

Kabalite Warrior/Genetor……Haemunculous.

Kabalite Warrior/Gland Warrior…..Wych. I could also see running a Wych using Death Cult Assassin or even Vindicare Assassin from Ascension, with the Vindicare's abilities changed to only work with ranged abilities (+5 WS after a kill instead of +5 BS).

Scourge…….I would probably just do something like a Kabalite Warrior with a 500xp Elite advance to get the Winged Mutation. Maybe one or two other mutations as well (something like the Agent of the Throne would be cool, where you pay XP to access a separate advancement table even). I just don't know if it needs its own alt rank.

Hellions and Reavers are Kabalite Warriors on hover boards/jet bikes.

Beastmasters seem like Verminspeakers, but that would require Psyker which is a big No-No. So not quite sure on this one.

Similarly, except just giving him Sorcery talents, not sure what to do for a Mandrake (which are awesome!).

Other alt ranks that seem worthy of mention are Reaver (maybe for the DE him/herself or for the Explorer to explain how they could be so depraved to deal with a DE), and the ace pilot (sorry name escapes me ATM) from Into the Storm, since DE love high speed boards/bikes/jets/etc.

Again the point isn't that players/GM's can't do it themselves, it's that the official licensed published game can't.

Was it ever presented as a Dark Eldar Handbook? My impression was that it was an adventure with a little bit of extra stuff to make it interesting to those of us who don't play the published adventures. The DE player character bits were just an extra.
Admittedly, the format is a little odd. Usually it's a sourcebook with a small adventure in the back instead of an adventure with a bit of sourcebook material in it, but hey, they're just answering the oft-heard complaint that FFG produces too many adventures and not enough setting stuff. This at least partially answers the gripe.

I would suggest taking an optimistic stance and being glad FFG has included Dark Eldar at all, albeit in an unusual fashion. I'm glad to have this as a PC option now rather than waiting indefinitely for a future supplement where it may arguably have fitted better. Now that it's been introduced, we may well see further Dark Eldar content in other books that will supplement it. As a beginning, though, it's exciting.

Niqvah said:

HappyDaze said:

I can't recall my thoughts at the time of writing - honestly, I can see reasons for either option, particularly as Dark Eldar deliberately don't speak other languages (I gave them a translator to cover that, rather than have them actually know the languages of lesser creatures) and Kabalites are specifically something of an upper-class within Dark Eldar society.

N0-1_H3r3 said:

I notice that the Basic box for Speak Language (Dark Eldar) is blacked in on the sheet, so whoever made the sheet must have believed that the first instance gave Speak Language (Dark Eldar) as an untrained Basic skill despite the clear wording given in the text.

Adeptus-B said:

D'oh! Turns out my memory did not serve: Splinter Rifles have a full-auto RoF of 5, not 10. I'm less confident that enough shots will overcome a Space Marine's amour/Toughness to force Toxic rolls; Kabalite Warriors may need to be fielded as small Hordes (maybe Magnitude 15 or so) to threaten SMs. I'll probably play a small skirmish with a group of DEKW guards first, to get a feel for how much punishment they can dish out to SMs, and then decide if I need to use Hordes for the main conflict(s) of the mission…

N0-1_H3r3 said:

Looking more closely at the Wych stats, I realize that losing their massive Dodge (Agility 61 with Unnatural [tests are one step easier] and Dodge +20= 91 freakin' %!) for an extra d10 damage is a huge trade-off. I missed Crushing Blow and Razor Sharp- maybe Wyches don't need to be fielded as Hordes to damage SMs. Especially if they attack from ambush…

signoftheserpent said:

signoftheserpent said:

I doubt we'll get more, actually. We got the Ork and Kroot rules in Into The Storm. Since then, there hasn't been anything in terms of Alternate Ranks for either. We're getting the Ork Weirdboy in Navis Primer (which is super neat) but I don't think FFG likes writing out alien race's special rules again every book. Plus, most of their gear is already in other books (this and Hostile Acquisitions.)

I'd kill to see more Dark Eldar; a Haemonculus or Incubus option would be amazing, and I think that the Sslyth Mercenary fits perfectly in Rogue Trader - but I really doubt we'll see it.

Samasboy said:

I think it obvious I meant to say, change the Vindicare's abilities that work with ranged to only work with melee, thus the bonus to WS instead of BS. Anyway….

signoftheserpent said:

I don't agree with that point and I don't see how it is a helpful point of view. Warhammer 40k is a huge setting, and even if they were to print as many books as D&D had under v3.5, it is unlikely FFG could make an "official" version of every possibility a character would want to play. If every hive city, nevermind planet , gets its own alt origin in Dark Heresy like Gunmetal City, that alone would take several books. That doesn't mean I can't play a Vostroyan Guardsman. Maybe I just use Imperial World. Or maybe the DM lets me trade in a normal trait for something appropriate (Resistance-Cold and Hatred-Orks), using Maccabean Quintus as a template.

I understand the desire to to see the options you want in print. Its always easiest when you can just point to something in a book and show the DM. But what I suggested is "official licensed published game" material. The most you would have to do is waive a Career requirement, if that , for basically all my suggestions.

RPGs are, at heart, games of imagination. We definately depend on the rules to have a shared basis for our shared experience, but theres nothing wrong with some adaptation. Heck, you could even consider any of it an Elite Advance.

I would hate to be the guy agreeing with Sign of the Serpent, but stating that these games are about imagination, while true, is a quaint notion. I work a lot, take my wife out, and am a busy guy. I don't have time to write or rewrite rules, which is why I pay professionals to write rules for me, and its a tidy sum each of these books costs, too.

When I was 18, I had all kinds of time to just write up rules, play test them, and in general eff around, while living in my Dad's basement. Those days passed decades ago.

Seeten:

If that's the case, then you likely don't have time to explore all of the options that ARE in the game. So what's the issue?

LOL, good counter point.

You are certainly right there.

Ferau said:

signoftheserpent said:

I see. So you're referring to the issues that a lot of people have had with the way the 40K line has been expanded from the beginning. Do you have an issue with the lack of full compatibility? This situation resembles how Lure of the Expanse only presented a named Farseer instead of just a generic statblock labelled "Farseer".

I'll admit that it's not exactly an ideal presentation for me, since my players have never had much interest in RT, but I've never had much problem using the antagonists in the various 40K books, adventure or not, for my own purposes.

As for Haemonculi being presented as they are instead of as a generic monster, I can see two reasons for that:

1. The Dark Eldar are also antagonists for Black Crusade. So we'll see those in an upcoming monster book for that line.

2. There may be creative decisions going on, writers and editors deciding that Haemonculi and Farseers both need to be presented as named, unique NPCs. Like Akirvas from PtU:Shades of Twilight or whoever the Haemonculus is in Soulreaver.

Seeten said:

And I understand where you're coming from, since I also have a job, wife, kid, and less time than I would like to devote to some recreational hobbies. But if you can't say, "I wan't to play a melee based combat-drug fuel Dark Eldar. Hmmm…..Gland Warrior seems to have me covered," just because it doesn't have the name "Wych" on it, rather than complain there isn't an existing Wych alt rank, I don't know that time is the problem in your game. This isn't meant to be a personal shot at you, or anyone else. I am just saying that thinking laterally when confronted by a problem that doesn't even require home-brewing to come up with a solution seems a better attitude than angst. Because I want to enjoy the time I do get to devote to my hobby.

signoftheserpent said:

But to truely present the setting "as is" would require presenting all the options, as would allowing customers to truely choose which elements they wanted to use in their campaigns.

To put this another way, nothing prevented you from homebrewing Dark Eldar and using them in your campaign before this book came out. Now that the book has come out, even if it doesn't contain every possible option for the Dark Eldar, it has only made it easier to implement those options, since half of the work has been done. You don't have to make up DE stats, you just have to add abilities to make the DE into a haemonculous, or scourge, or whatever. It doesn't exclude or prevent anything, the book only adds things.

But in order to get some DE info, a player has to buy this book which is an adventure for RT. So a Black Crusade GM is going to have to hope the stuff that is provided suits his needs and is compatible. That is by no means guaranteed. If he wants to use a Haemonculi, he will have to crib somethign from the NPC in this adventure. The book gives no rules for a basic NPC haemonculi, for instance.

Well, to release a DE book, it would have to be released for one of the, now, 5 different games FFG produces. So compatability would be a possible conscern no matter what game you were playing. But thats little different that White Wolf releasing supplements for Werewolf: The Apocalypse that a GM wanted to use material from in his Vampire: The Masquerade game (Old World of Darkness). The systems were basically the same, but there were idiosyncracies to each.

An

Samasboy said:

This is much my feeling. While I'd love a Wych, and Reaver, Wrack (eventually 'evolving' in to a homulculus, cause if you squint it kinda looks like that's how it works), and especially Mandrake careers or alternate ranks. But we don't, because the book would need to be another third again the size to include absolutely everything everyone would want. So we'll make do, and it isn't really that hard. Make a really 'techy' Warrior, and talk to your GM about taking Genetor, and you will probably something like a Homunculi. And I doubt you'd need much more than combat drugs and a careful pick of equipment and skills to play either a Reaver or Wych.

I'd need the book, which I won't have until wednesday (my FLGS was bro and ordered it in special for me), to be able to make any actual guesses on what can be worked with, but I'm willing to bet there are a few alternate ranks that could be used to replicate things that are Dark Eldar.

But if you guys can convince FFG to let you write more Dark Eldar stuff, don't let me stop you.

From what it sounds like, a Kabalite Warrior can pretty easily be a Reaver (just nab a jetbike,) Hellion (grab a skyboard and a hellglaive,) or a Wych (acquire some combat drugs and Hydra gauntlets.) That said, a Haemonculus, Wrack, Incubus, Mandrake, or Scourge sound pretty close to impossible without house-ruling. As someone who was looking to Soul Reaver as a comprehensive guide to Dark Eldar, those iconic roles missing kinda sucks. Look at the Ork; his basic rules cover the average Ork through a Warboss, there's alternate ranks for Kommandos and Mekboyz, and he got background options for Painboyz and Runtherds on top of all of the klanz. They also have the Weirdboy in the upcoming Navis Primer. The bulk of the Ork army list is covered by a smattering of options. Kroot got similar coverage; the regular Carnivore and the more esoteric Shaper got some love, along with plenty of breeds.

The Dark Eldar are pretty fresh and unique. That handful of background options and a few alternate ranks could've easily kept people happy and made this a perfect package. Although I still fully intend to buy this book, it would not have taken much to please everyone by nixing a few pages of other things.

Plushy said: