@Ravenstormchaser

If the adventure was already published, I'd agree with you. There are hundreds of ways that this situation could come to pass. However, none of them is written in the adventure - and there's still time to change that. It's not that the battallion can't be explained, it's that it hasn't been explained. The fact that it has raised so many eyebrows here should indicate it will raise many more in the future, even though it is merely an oddity, a throw-away reference that is never picked up again.

It's like if I wrote a murder mystery set in the real world, described one of the characters as "Oh, and he has blue skin" and never got back to that. My readers would at first wonder why he's got blue skin and then, when no explanation follows, settle for "Because the author wanted him to be a special snowflake. Ugh." And that's what I feel is happening here due to the rarity of Landraiders. Either explain them or drop them.

I agree that land raiders should be changed to armored battalion or something similar without actually having to detail what kind of tanks.

The point of the sentence is to show that the Rogue Trader is investing heavily in defending the planet - it doesn't have to be land raiders.

I suspect the outrage and disbelief in this thread are the exact reactions that House Gibrahan wished to provoke when it acquired all those lovely Land Raiders.

Alox said:

I'm willing to bet the intent was to sort of tip the hand at the kind of power available to the Rogue Trader, possibly in an attempt to help describe him in later campaign books when he inevitably rebels against the Imperium.

Ravenstormchaser said:

As an ex servicemen I fully disagree with this claim. Company of vehicles to carry Company of men… Battalion of vehicles to carry Batallion of men… thats the rule. If we consider standard military organizations in most countries of modern era and Warhammer 40k military organizations are based on some crossover between modern / contemporary organizations and some archaic Napoleon era (most Imperial Guard) and even medieval (Adeptus Astartes) military organisation structures then a Batallion of Land Raiders would mean around 30 or more vehicles, considering Squad -> Platoon -> Company -> Batallion hierarchy. There are no squads in motorised, mechanized or armored regiments. There are sections of 2-3 vehicles which can form up platoons of 4 to 6 vehicles… it depends. Further that Platoons form up a Company with roughly 10 to even 20 vehicles. Further that Companies form Battalions which consist of number of Companies so we came up to roughly 30 to 60 vehicles per Battalion.

I'm not some heavy Warhammer 40k tabletop gamer, I don't have a single model, but I've read through Codexses and a loads of military literature form Roman era to contemporary and from what I've learned there are no Battalions in Warhammer 40k military organization anyways… they simply skipped from Company to Regiment.

I really just don't like how many of them there are, either.

And brb… gonna check Imperial Armour to see if that will shed any light on what the structure is like in the game. Maybe the Primer or Munitorium book too…

I think it was a writer oops and he actualy intended a battalion of Baneblades…say 3 to 9.
This would still be a lot but stranger things have happened.

@Santiago

Pfft. As if a backwater world such as this one would have any less than a hundred baneblades at its disposal!

@Santiago

Pfft. As if a backwater world such as this one would have any less than a hundred baneblades at its disposal!

[i finally read the Against the Savages mission and replied to the similar thread in that subforum, but figured I might as well crosspost my response here, hopefully no one minds]

I honestly don't have a problem with the battalion of Land Raiders, and here's why:

If you read the background, Land Raiders used to be much more common, to the point there was at least one Forge World dedicated to purely producing thousands and thousands of them. This implies they saw ridiculously wide deployment before and during the Heresy (which makes sense) and it was the emerging Chaos threat and the (Imperial loss/Chaos gain) of key Forge worlds that meant the supply suddenly dwindled, resulting LRs being assigned solely to the Astartes.

However, as we know, there are plenty and plenty of worlds that were "lost" from the Imperium following the Heresy, and many of them are still being rediscovered in various states of disrepair, heresy, whatever. However, it is not the Space Marines who are exploring new worlds, nor the Imperial Guard, or any branch of the Imperium (except perhaps the Mechanicus). Rather, one of the most common people to "re"discover lost Imperial worlds are Rogue Traders, since by definition they primarily operate outside the realm of Imperial Space.

Thus, if anyone were to discover a world with a storehouse of Heresy-era Land Raiders, the likelihood that person is a Rogue Trader is ridiculously high. This would also explain why House Gibrahen is as wealthy as it is: if they found a battalion of Land Raiders, that planet likely contained other extremely valuable treasures, helping to propel the House to a higher status. Because Rogue Traders operate on the same 'level' as the Inquisition and the Astartes, it's not like anyone could take the find away from the House.

I agree the concept is somewhat extreme, but I don't think it's implausible on any level, considering this is the 40k universe and plenty of more ridiculous things happen on a regular basis.

HTMC said:

Except that the there was an Imperial decree by the Emperor himself that "all Land Raiders still in loyalist service were to be transferred and used exclusively by the Legionnes Astartes, who were at the forefront of the fighting. The Emperor was never able to annul the order, and consequently, even after the Heresy, the use of the Land Raider remained exclusive to the Space Marines." As such any non-Astartes found in possession of them is breaking a direct decree of the God Emperor himself, and would face retribution by countless chapters of the Astartes, Inquisitors and potentially even Officio Assassinorum operatives.

It would be helpful to know if Skrynne, and otherwise the rest of the holdings of this particular Rouge Trader, fall outside the direct borders of the Imperium.

The planet is described as colonial…

Remember, outside the Imperium, a Rogue Trader speaks with the same level of authority as the Emperor (and would therefore be within his rights to ignore the decree).

I'm going to agree with HTMC on this, and if anything, I feel that its possible enough to make for an interesting game. Its also a fairly interesting plot hook for future shenanigans.

Kasatka said:

Version 1:

Land raiders? That's preposterous! Don't you know that land raiders are reserved for exclusive use by the Adeptus Astartes? Now, these machines may resemble land raiders to a layman, but if you examine this official Adeptus Administratum permit, you will find that careful studies has proven that they are distinctly different - yet not heretekical - vehicles, and thus not covered by the God-Emperor's decree.

You can find the official copy in the Administratum archives on Inola 4. Are you suggesting that the Administratum made a blasphemous mistake?

Version 2:

Land raiders? Yes, these are land raiders. I am transporting them for the Adeptus Astartes, as allowed by clarifying Imperial Decree #45678. This document clearly proves that a shipment of land raiders are due to be delivered on Delta Aunret 4 as soon as possible, for use by the Storm Wings Chapter.

What was that? Delta Aunret 4 was destroyed by Exterminatus more than 500 years ago? Of course I know that. It doesn't change the contract. Until it can be fulfilled I have no choice but to keep the cargo safe and close.

They're used "in battles" you say? Well, that's a rather crass way of putting it. Naturally the land raiders have to be tested from time to time. Do you want the Astartes to go into battle with defective equipment? And if a few enemies of the Emperor happen to be destroyed in the process, why, who could possibly object to that? Do you oppose the destruction of the Enemies of Mankind?

Some are newer than 500 years? Why yes. As per the contract, I must replace cargo lost or damaged in transit. That includes damage incurred during loading and unloading or, based on the interpretation of the finest - and best paid - legal minds in the sector, due to stray missiles hitting the land raiders while they are being tested . It's a terrible expense. I do hope they somehow patch Delta Aunret 4 up soon, so I can finally deliver these things.

***

And so on and so forth. A powerful rogue trader willing to make the effort can get away with a lot.

Of course, the simple explanation is that the land raider battalion is actually used by space marines . It's not unheard of for rogue traders to carry space marine units on their ships. (There's an example in the Rogue Trader Core Rulebook, page 330.)

I think the number of space marines crewing and transporting a full battalion of land raiders could probably end the war for Skrynne very quickly. The Ultramarines chapter is listed as having somewhere around battalion strength Land Raider supplies. Multiple Battle companies could be carried in a battalion on Land Raiders.

I think they're just using some of the older "Rogue Traders can get pretty much anything they want" fluff, which is more BFG than anything FFG has put out. (Alien vessals, space marine support (though not at the same time!), heavy inquisitorial support and even the occasional Black Ship would not be beyond the grasp of a powerful Rogue Trader. They might even be "on loan" from some chapter helped by the Rogue Trader, and therefore still on their books.

SomVone said:

You're assuming Astartes are crewing these land raiders.

Assuming they aren't, I'd imagine a high end Rogue Trader would have few problems obtaining Land Raiders, whether they've been gifted by some Astartes chapter the Rogue trader has aided, or simply kept far enough from the records so that no one who would take offense knows.

Rogue Traders don't have much of a hard time using Xenos allies, so I wouldn't imagine Land Raiders would be all that much harder.

I'd also not take the "only space marines can use land raiders" as law, if was posted on the defunct GW website, and has notably never been repeated in a single Land Raider containing codex sense. I imagine their rarity outside of the AA is probably a larger version of the reason most Imperial forces don't use Rhinos. They're simply very hard to make.

SomVone said:

Indeed, AA aren' the only ones capable of using Land Raiders, in fact the history of the Land Raiders states it was an STC found during the golden age and that frontier colonists were using Rhinos and the Imperial Army were using Land Raiders. However it is also said that the Emperor decreed that only the AA should have the Land Raider, so i'd imagine that all of them that could be were withdrawn and refitted for AA. Any that a Rogue Trader had nowadays would either have to be an ancient relic, or a customised and likely illegally obtained AA version, in which case they would not be on good terms with the AA in general.

This thread has bandied back and forth many ideas that pro and against the concept of RTs having astartes assets, but i think its safe to say that the author just went for some piece of tech that is clearly incredibly rare and used by the AA so as to create a sense of "ooh, shiney!" from players and GMs alike. Whether it was properly thought out or not and is in fitting with the canon is another matter, but there you go.

Interesting post!

Generally, the reason for including such details is that they inspire people to imagine how they might come about and inspire them to similar ideas in their own games. Rogue Traders can pretty much get away with anything, so long as it doesn't bring them into conflict with other Peers of the Imperium. Of course, a Rogue Trader fielding equipment typically reserved for the use of the Adeptus Astartes might very well find himself in conflict if a particular Chapter challenges his right to do so (by invoking a 13 year old White Dwarf article for example!) and that in itself could lead the campaign in a whole new direction.

Either way, imagining how the detail might come about is clearly more fun than dismissing it as a mistook

Regardings

Andy

CodenameXXIII said:

RE: ATTENTION ADMINISTRATUM // TERRA 508.97 JUNCTION X978

DISCREPANCY NOTED IN HOLY WRIT. MARKED FOR REVIEW. ESTIMATED TIME OF RESPONSE: 57 YEARS 4 MONTHS 3 WEEKS 11 DAYS 4 HOURS.

FURTHER CORRESPONDENCES ON THIS SUBJECT ARE A DRAIN ON ADMINISTRATUM RESOURCES AND MAY RESULT IN THE EXECUTION OF THE REQUESTER BY IT'S IMMEDIATE SUPERIORS.

EMPEROR PROTECTS

It's not surprising, the Inquisition has landraiders as well. If the Rogue Trader was granted dispensation in his warrant to possess such a thing, then yes, he would logically have them.

Having a Warrant of Trade that stretches back to at least the age of Apostasy it is possible his Warrant allowed something that contradicts the Emperors edict, Gorge Vandire was a madman and did exceed his authority.

However a battalion of Land Raiders is a huge amount. Space Marine chapters don't even have that many and they are the ones who supposed have exclusive rights to them. (Heh Dark Angels I found where your Iron Wing went.)

A lot of Space Marine chapters and about all Renegade Space Marine groups would board the ship the Land Raiders are on and take them.

If Baneblades are too much of a replacement try Macharius tanks. They are also known as 2nd Generation Baneblades, having a similar roll as Baneblades but being less advanced and not quite as capable.

tygre said:

LOL Funny you should mention the Mach. I did stats for it back in DH. Waiting for the final version of OW before updating them.

And, again, the Inq openly ignores the Emperor's edict and uses Landraiders, as do the Admech. Without exact details, it's hard o figure how this would work, but RTs can also finangle themselves thier own private Titans, which is something that is prohibited to anyone outside the admech.

And, they might be Spartan assault tanks, which are a landraider in all but name.

BaronIveagh said:

The Inquisition and the Admech are whole orders of magnitude more powerful than any rogue trader dynasty.
It would be like comparing Bill Gates to a countrys Treasury. Bill Gates may be one of the wealthiest people alive, but his entire fortune would only pay for a year, or a year and a half, of my countries budget (And I live in a small country).
I do not believe that RT's can finangle their own private Titans. They can come to a deal with the Admech where the Admech provide a Titan as an allie. The Titans crew, maintenance personal etc are all still Admech, but they are under the RT's limited command. The Titans ultimate boss is still the Admech.
The problem is a RT will have one hell of a time keeping such a thing. If the RT found a Titan they would sell it to the Mechanicus, because there is no way the Admech would let them keep it. The Space Marines would be the same with their relics.
Random Space Marine Chapters Message to the Rogue Trader
"I hear you have found some of our lost Land Raiders. Return them to us and we will owe you a favour. If you do not we will collect them ourselves"
If it was older Tech like Spartans the Rogue Trader will have problems keeping it out of Admech hands as well as Space Marine hands.

Though I don't doubt that the Admech use Land Raiders (to a limited extent) I cannot recall any reference to them doing so. Can you give me a reference (Seriously I want to know, for my own knowledge).

tygre said:

Radwraith said:

So…

it's within the realm of possibility that he's mugged 2+ Space Marine Chapters for their rides? And is now using them in Imperial Space?

The problem isnt how many, it's that they are land raiders at all.

Someone argued that he's gotta be rich - he's able to commit 2 Light cruisers to a war zone. Sorry, that's not terribly intimidating. Half the RT groups I see out there have multiple capital ships. It's a very nice investment and often they are 'free' from boarding actions.