Hello all,

We normally play a 4 player melee game so i was wondering about the impact of Dragon Sight to the game mechanics.

So assuming i have Dragon Sight attached to my Targ-House card and i manage to set the season to summer (Crown of Mereen for instance).

House Targaryen only.
Attach to your House card. If if is Summer, when you declare a challenge type, your opponent must declare defenders before you declare attackers. The opportunity for your opponent to declare defenders after you declare attackers is lost.

So I declare a challenge (for instance military). What are the possible effects now?

For instance assuming the target player wants to defend he has to choose his defenders - so far so good.

But what if he chooses not to defend - when does a supporting player has to say that he is defending in regard of me naming the attackers?

When are the Crown regent or the lord commandor of the Kingsguard able to redirect?

MrFixit said:

I'd say that the Supporting player would need to declare support immediately after defenders are not declared; and before attackers are declared.

MrFixit said:

For Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, I'm thinking it would have its place similar to Title supporting timing… following the declaration of defenders.

As for Crown Regent and Varys(TGM) redirect are supposed to follow the declaration of attackers. In this case I would still say it would be done after attackers are declared… even if defenders have also been declared… where the defenders being declared would end up being wasted.

That is how I'd rule it at my games until there would be an official ruling or unless there is a more reasonable reason presented otherwise.

In a normal challenge, things work like this:

1. Challenge is initiated:
• Attacking player annouces challenge type and defending player
• Attacking player declares/kneels attacking characters
• (Crown Regent can redirect the challenge to a new defending player, not changing anything else)
2. Player Actions
3. Challenge is defended:
• Attacking player assigns Stealth
• Defending player declares/kneels defendering characters
• (If the defending player does not declare defending characters, the Lord Commander may redirect the challenge to himself, jumping back to #2)
• (If the defending player does not declare defending characters and the Lord Commander doesn't redirect, a Supporting Player may "take over" the challenge by declaring defenders)
4. Player Actions
5. Resolve Challenge

When Dragon Site in involved, the declaration of defenders jumps up to become part of the process of for initiating the challenge. Anything that includes declaring defenders (or not declaring defenders, as the case may be) as a play restriction therefore jumps with it. So, things end up working like this:

1. Challenge is initiated:
• Attacking player annouces challenge type and defending player
• Defending player declares/kneels defendering characters
• (If the defending player does not declare defending characters, the Lord Commander may redirect the challenge to himself and declares defenders; it's still considered a cancel for declaring defenders, but there is no #2 to jump back to)
• (If the defending player does not declare defending characters and the Lord Commander doesn't redirect, a Supporting Player may "take over" the challenge by declaring defenders)
• Attacking player declares/kneels attacking characters (NOTE: The attacking player must declare an attacker, even if he doesn't like what was declared for defenders)
• (Crown Regent can redirect the challenge to a new defending player, not changing anything else)
2. Player Actions
3. Challenge is defended:
• Attacking player assigns Stealth (Kinda pointless now, unless you have a Response that keys off of something being bypassed by Stealth)
4. Player Actions
5. Resolve Challenge

ktom said:

Oh snap crackle pop… I've been doing the timing with Crown Regent all wrong… this will change many a melee games in my circle. Just to continue to clear remaining false claims in my head, when/if the Crown Regent redirects the challenge, the attacker cannot back down or add new attackers but has the ability to choose a new target, right?

Also, if Dragon Sight in play, after defenders and attackers have been declared, when the Crown Regent ability is used, all characters from both sides remain kneeling, right?

Some1new said:

Remember, of course, that the Crown Regent is not allowed to try to redirect the challenge if there is not another legal player for the attacker to attack. You cannot redirect a challenge to no where.

Some1new said:

Dragon Sight says that the defender must declare defending characters before attacking characters are declared and that the normal opportunity to declare defenders is lost. So, if you redirect a Dragon Sight challenge with Crown Regent, immediately after attackers are declared, there will be no opportunity for the new defender to declare defending characters. However, any characters that the original defender declared are still knelt, and still participating (since they were neither specifically removed from the challenge, nor removed from play).

ktom said:

Whoa.. so… using Crown Regent against Dragon Sight just shifts the person who suffers the claim? But then does the owners of the defending characters still chooses who dies (if military or from deadly) or does the new target of the challenge choose who dies.

Some1new said:

And, of course, the defending player is the one who it was redirected to.

Great explanation i really need to Bookmark it.

But in the process of this i noticed something that made me think..

So keeping Dragon sight out of the picture.. assuming i am attacking and i announce the challenge and the defending player. In the process I declare the attackers and kneel them and normally now i would choose characters that are bypassed by my stealth.

So according to your explanation - assuming that the defender does not declare defenders but a supporter jumps in i would not be able to restealth their characters, right? Or does the jumping #2 also apply to this case?

And now back to Dragon Sight. Assuming i am the Crown Regent am i allowed to redirect my own challenge (if there is a applicable target)?

thanks &

greetz

MrFixit said:

You are mistaken about the timing of Stealth: it is declared in the framework action window for declaring defenders. Between the time you declare and kneel attackers and the time you declare Stealth, there is an action window (during which a whole lot of things might happen). When someone supports a challenge, you do not get to redeclare Stealth (and you never have the opportunity to declare Stealth on characters controlled by the potential supporter). It is different for a challenge redirected by the Lord Commander, because the rules specify that you do get to redeclare Stealth.

MrFixit said:

The Lord Commander's redirect, the only one that "jumps back" to #2 (player actions before stealth/defending), does allow for a "restealth" because it works so differently - by rule - from a supporting title "redirect."

MrFixit said:

well this card is way more complicated than i originally thought

Well, the card itself is not particularly complicated. Keep in mind that most of what we've been talking about here are the three different ways to redirect a challenge in the game.

Dragon Sight itself is not terribly complicated. All it says is that the chance to declare defenders moves to before attackers are declared. That part is pretty simple. And even the lion's share of "after defenders are declared" passives and responses (that by necessity "move" with the opportunity to declare defenders) are pretty straightforward, too.

The only part that really gets confusing is the title-based redirect opportunities in Melee. And those are only really confusing because the timing flow is so different from what you're used to. If you are right-handed and you try holding a pencil in your left hand, everything is confusing - not because there is something fundamentally different about the pencil or anything, but because you aren't used to it. That's all that is really going on here. If the situation ever comes up (and it is fairly uncommon), just take some time to go through it slowly and don't lock yourself into pre-conceived notions. It'll make sense.

Even though I don't have the new Varys (from The Grand Melee), when could a player trigger his ability during a normal challenge vs. a challenge with Dragon Sight?

Varys is an actual Response to initiating the challenge, not a passive, so you would trigger him in the Response opportunity for #1 in both scenarios (which comes after the Crown Regent opportunity to redirect in both cases).

Think of Varys as a Response version of the "passive" Crown Regent.