I would like to express my only concern with Black Crusade, namely its orientation towards warbands.

It is known that GW took a similar course with the last chaos codex, removing many legion-specific rules and introducing a plethora of warbands, and making Huron Blackheart and his Red Corsairs (who are, in all respects, a nice addition to both fluff and wargame. Except that his first name is "Lufgt". W T F?) became the new poster-boys of chaos instead of the Black Legion. A move that estranged many chaos players, who were until then content with their specialised rules, units etc. And now, GW seems to intend to undo this move by releasing a codex devoted to the Chaos Legions.

This is not a random maneuvre on their behalf. The Chaos Legions have proven to be quite popular among the fans. The Thousand Sons novel became a best-seller, and the Horus Heresy series, which builds the background for most of the chaos Legions and their Primarchs, is proving to be very successful. The Word Bearers (my favourite Legion) and Iron Warriors novels got reprinted in collections.

And in the BC corebook, one may read that one of the renegade champions that might be encountered in the Screaming Vortex is "a Word Bearers Dark Apostle". WHAT? In the WB novels, a Dark Apostle is a highest-ranking member who commands a fleet and a Host of over 1000 Astartes. They are perfectly organised, disciplined and devoted, not scattered across the galaxy seeking to make new heretic friends. This also seems to be the case for the Iron Warriors, Black Legion and many others.

To get to the point, I assume that many BC players would wish to play a campaign revolving around a Chaos Legion, its internal power struggle and various undertakings, and the Long War.

The system is currently severely lacking in this aspect. There are no techmarines, apothecaries, dreadnoughts (not necessarily playable, but at least their stats), vehicles, fluff, special weapons, obliterators, posessed marines (like Burias of the WB), and dozens of other stuff.

I am not complaining. BC is an excellent game, and I intend to keep collecting everything that is released. And I am aware that Legions are, by far, not the game's main theme.

They are, however, a huge part of 40k chaos, and have many devoted fans. It is my opinion, that an RPG should cover the broadest possible range of themes, so that it can allow the players and GMs to unleash their creativity in their own way. And seeing that the three next supplements will -most possibly- not focus on Legions, I wanted to voice this concern.

I would eagerly like to hear other players' thoughts on this. Discuss.

I understand your position as I used to be, even though I never played the TT but only read the fluff, a great enthusiast for the Traitor Legions and almost looked on more recent renegade Astartes as a kind of cheap knock-off and inferior to proper/real Chaos Space Marines from the Chaos Legions. And I will be the first to admit that the fluff for the Traitor Legions is awesome and in my opinion much more interesting than that devoted to the loyalist legions. Therefore I understand the love for the Legions. And so I do not want in any way to say that the Legion focus is bad but I have come to think that the warbands focused is a, in my eyes, better and more useful way to tackle the forces of Chaos rather than thinking about them in terms of Legions.
For background I'll happily agree that the Legions are the most profilic examples within the Chaos ranks and they are after all the poster-boys of the forces of Chaos. But in terms of utility I think that the warband focus is the best one for Black Crusade since it allows a great deal of versility in incorporating very different characters to work together, even with different alignments and even goals. And so while Legions may be very good for inspiring characters and background I think that they don't work very well in the RP sense in that they are a bit restrictive to the typical game.

For background I'll happily agree that the Legions are the most profilic examples within the Chaos ranks and they are after all the poster-boys of the forces of Chaos. But in terms of utility I think that the warband focus is the best one for Black Crusade since it allows a great deal of versility in incorporating very different characters to work together, even with different alignments and even goals. And so while Legions may be very good for inspiring characters and background I think that they don't work very well in the RP sense in that they are a bit restrictive to the typical game.

In that the system is lacking in that the Chaos Space Marines only comes in four ways, all kind of geared to murder and mayhem, is a thing I understand the critic against but I think its for a balancing reason. After all Chaos Space Marines are vastly superior in battle compared with humans but by giving the humans the tech-nich the humans become a little more useful and interesting to play. I think its a kind of choice to ensure that the game don't become the Dark Side of Deathwatch which could happen if the Chaos Space Marines were given all the same as the humans.

In terms of supplements I think it is a very good thing that these will not focus on the Legions but instead on the gods of Chaos for the start if for the reason that I consider the Legions to be more of background with the warbands being the centre of the actual game. In fact I'd wager that each of the supplements will discuss the relevant cult-legion to some degree, for example there's an entire archetype centered on the Thousand Sons in the Tome of Fate and more will likely follow in other supplements.

So the essence of my opinion is that while the Traitor Legions are awesome as background elements I think that warbands are much more useful for playing the game, and that the concept and social dynamic of having more chaotic warbands as opposed to ordered legions seems also to fit the theme and feeling of the followers of Chaos best.

We already know the Tome of Fate will shed some light on the Thousand Sons. Presumably, others will follow, as will new archetypes, vehicle rules and other stuff. I think you'll get your wish - just not when the game line consists of a Core Book, an adventure and a GM screen.

I think that Black Crusade will get to covering the various Traitor Legions, probably in the relevant Chaos Power book (the Tzeentch book has Thousand Sons, etc.) - and in that case the non-specific Legions (Word Bearers, Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Black Legion) would do well with a book that covers them.

I am a bit disappointed in how slowly supplements for Black Crusade seem to be coming out. It's almost to its one-year anniversary and we still don't have anything more than the corebook, a GM screen/kit, and an adventure book. All of those are quality, but one or two more products would have been nice. As it is, we still don't have anything announced after The Tome of Fate.

I wouldn't say that the Legions are only useful as background material .

If one takes the time to read about the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors ( haven't read about the Night Lords , yet ) , it will be obvious that a full campaign is possible , without ever getting to meet imperial scum ( well perhaps in the end game , at the head of your Host/Grand Company ) .

In a game called Black Crusade it would be a shame if the Legions are absent rules-wise .

But the rules is not the main concern here .

We want moar background . Moar .

Let's start with the cult Legions in each of the God specific books , then .

Cifer said:

i'll be happy if there are game stats for the standard issue 1000 sons trooper (the so called 'haunted armor'). As an aside, i'm VERY interested in the chaos god splat books. Just shut up and take my money already!

El Cid said:

While I see you overreaching point I think that if you play a Traitor Legionarie in a game focused on the Traitor Legions they you are kind of expecting to see some serious action against the Corpse God's lapdogs, and not wait untill the endgame.

Gurkhal said:

Well , I said "possible" not "mandatory" , wanting to emphasize the fact that the Legionnaires could have PLENTY of stuff to do even when they are not butchering imperial scum . A full fledged campaign around Inter-Legion diplomacy and Intra-Legion strife .

I have mentioned this idea again in this forum so I will not tire you with it .

"Λ for Λegιon"

I gotta think that an alignment based coverage of the Legions might be better. At least for the time being. Bear with me now…

If you're making some crazy World Eaters Berzerker, then all the stuff in the Khorne book will be exactly the kind of stuff you'll want/need… right?

Once the four alignments are covered they can do an unaligned book (I think they said they wouldn't… but they probably will, if not in name) which will could the other Legions in it. Or an actual book for the remaining Legions. Honestly, I think it's inevitable that they'll all virtually get some coverage. Just gotta be patient.

Blood Pact said:

I don't think there will be a proper Unalignment book but there will most likely be more books except for the ones for each of the Chaos gods and these books will probably contain some info about the other Traitor Legions. Now of course I don't think that the Traitor Legions would get to much coverage since they are after all not as important, at least how I see it, as warbands or Chapters are to the loyalists but some info would be nice.

I love some of the Traitor Legions, but I don't think they have that many qualities that would require any special rules coverage. Plus, I already hate how they covered the Thousand Sons in the Tome of Fate spoiler - still mutating, really?

Focus on the warbands gives players and GMs much more leeway, and there is enough wiggle space in the rules to cover most, if not all, imaginable Legion characters. Plus, the less space the supplements take to introduce differing starting packages, the more can be devoted to stuff important to all the game and not just the half hour it takes to create the character sheets.

Morangias said:

To be fair, I'd hardly call Ahriman's spell a resounding success. So not stopping all the mutations isn't out of the question (perhaps it only stopped the spontaneous stuff, and using sorcery can still be a risk).

It always says the spell worked perfectly. Ashing the rank and file? Acceptable loss.

Fenrisnorth said:

What loss? They're still combat-capable, they obey orders perfectly, and they don't mutate. All in all, a resounding success!

The sorcerers will mutate, not the rhubrics ones… since there dead automatons…

crisaron said:

"Ahriman, once Chief Librarian of the Legion, and second only to Magnus in power, united a conclave of his most trusted sorcerers, and together they cast a spell, known as the Rubric of Ahriman, of tremendous magnitude that would save the legion from the fate of mutation. The results were not what Ahriman expected…but he was satisfied with them none the less. The Thousand Sons were now safe from the taint of chaos, but at a terrible price. Those untouched by the flesh change had their psychic powers greatly strengthened, but those who had already mutated had their physical bodies reduced to dust and their animate spirits damned to live inside their armour forever."

From Lexicanum . Emphasis mine.

I have to agree that everything I have read on the Rubric says that it made the remaining TS Sorcerers immune to mutation.

The way I'd have done it is either let them reroll any Mutation/Gift that alters their physical form, or automatically default to the closest result on the table which doesn't alter their body.

I tought they where only protected from the geenseed prone mutation but then again so many ways to see it…

The Touhsands sons before the Rubric where very prone to mutation if I understood correctly, anyway that is the way I would play it.

The current 'Chaos' Codex is a travesty. Removing God-specific daemons and daemonic gifts (core elements of Chaos that have been around since the Realms of Chaos days), rando-Possessed, troops that forget what God they serve when the guy with the Icon dies, generic daemon weapons, Legions reduced to nothing but different paint jobs; it compeltely drained the life out of TT Chaos. Only the GK Codex ranks above it in sheer horrible-ness (but for completely different reasons). Thankfully, if the rumours be true, then it's about to die the death it always deserved and get replaced with a new Codex in a month or two. We live in hope that it will restore some of Chaos' glory and majesty.

In the meantime, and as far as BC is concerned, I don't think we have to be worried. The preview showed out a Thousand Sons Sorcerer Archetype, so we can make an educated guess that this series of supplements that they're planning should include other Legion-specific archetypes. Who knows what we'll get or when (I really really want Fate to come out!!!) but I trust FFG to deliver here.

BYE

Ahh, but as I mentioned in a previous thread, Legion-specific Archetypes could be inherently limited in some cases. Alpha Legion for example, whose to say you can't be one AND be a Champion? Noone really wants them to come out with anything that says "this is how you have be an Iron Warrior".

The Thousand Sons sorcerer is one of the ones that actually works pretty solidly (again, you could make a really sneaky Alpharius-wannabe Archetype, but it seems like there would be better ways to get to representing that without going through making a whole Archetype). World Eater Berzerker on the other hand (why do Berzerkers HAVE to be World eaters?).

The list of reasons for both goes on and on, I just hope they don't shove the Legions-as-Archetypes ideas down our throat in every single case.

Blood Pact said:

Archetypes are really rather broad. They only really dictate your starting set and one special ability, but beyond that you're wide open. More Archetypes are not more limiting since you can always choose from what was available before.

HappyDaze said:

Technically, you're right. But in practice, people tend to pick up the options that seem most in line with their character concept, and thus introducing specific options leads to players excluding them from the more general ones. Thus, in a sense, introducing a Thousand Sons sorcerer archetype excludes the TSS character concept from the core Sorcerer archetype.

Blood Pact said:

Legion-specfic archetypes would also be restrictive because in every legion there are Astartes who fill many different roles. But each legion's inclination and specialisation could also be expressed through traits, special rules, additional narrative, sub-quests and story elements that would encourage legion gameplay in the calixis sector…

Regarding the 1k sons, I don't think that they are free of mutation, as I remember reading somewhere that Ahriman's face was ever-shifting and generally weird. Probably, they are protected from the ill effects of mutation.

Sounds like the face of tzeentch. Technically it's a reward, not a mutation.