Hi,

The 40k univerese presents alot of new terms so what is the exact differance between a cogitator and a logic engine?

As I gather it:

Cogitator:
A (large) machine that can quickly solve mathematical equations and often works on punch cards.

Logic Engine:
A (large) machine that can store and process information

What would be practical uses for the both of them?

GrtZ,

Santiago...

I would not assume Cogitator work on punch cards - why would they do that?

As I perceive it Cogiator is a computer at least up to the standards (or lack of them) as a modern day PC

If anything but for the name Logic Engine would I assume was for calculations and math stuff including logic

Would think it would fit the setting and i've seen it mentioned somewhere...

Logic is mathematics and calculation, cogitation is more likely your desktop/server equivalent capable of our PC's

There is a very good reason why a punch card would be used and that is the durability of media storage along a single proscribed format. Like may people who have worked in IT for a very long time, we recognise this is a serious issue.

Media in say the current format we have for example-

flash ram- 5-10 years

optical- 1-10 years

floppy- 5 years

hard drive- 5-15 years

Yes, you can backup and backup endlessly across those types of media and in some cases they will last a bit longer in service and they are compatively efficient, but that isnt to say that the data stored on them is going to be corrupted, wiped by a magnet or any number of accidents while it is in service. And once its gone, its staggeringly hard to recover.

So, there is the punch card. Provided you make it out of something which is stable and wont decay over time, its going to be fairly durable and last fairly much indefinately and machines that are made post its creation are also set to the same format, it will work on anything which is 5 years old or 5000 years old. That length of service is what would make the punch card invaluable in the imperium and its record keeping by storing it on a non magnetic, stable binary format. Plus the Imperium of man just isnt that IT intensive, it is human intensive, so if you have to find 50 trained idiots to stick cards in a machine in the right order in an otherwise indescipherable format to keep the riff raff out of the business, then so be it says the Adeptus Mechanicus.

I consider the use of punch cards highly improbable - the amount of data the Imperium uses just can't be stored on punch cards, no matter how many people you employ to do it. I'd rather assume there are new durable storage methods, or, if there aren't, then some part of the Administratum will be busied with the Ritual Of The Holy Back-Up.

@Op

Where is that logic engine mentioned?

MOther said:

Well, cognomens are described as punch cards that can be read by cogitators or data slates. It seems retro enough, dysfunctional, and man-power intensive enough to fit 40k perfectly.

As for Logic-Engine vs Cogitator, I would say that they are two names for the same thing.

I think some might use punch cards, in the same way that some use pen and paper - different areas use whatever technology is at hand. However, for storage durability and resilience to the environment, nothing beats digital tape. Tape is the only digital storage medium to meet archival standards (legible for at least 50 years, if I remember correctly), so mini-casettes are probably fairly common. Multipurpose dataslates might have cassette drives in them to switch out data systems.

As for "Logic Engines" and "Cogitators", Cogitators, I believe, have the same sort of functionality as a modern computer, though perhaps better or worse depending on the size or quality. The term "Logic Engine" makes me think of an Arithmetical Logic Unit, which makes me think that they're basically advanced calculators, including logical functions, binary data compiling, basic graphics, etc.

Personally I see them as names for the same thing, just one in which function comes into play. Then again I'm less the "space fantasy" and more the "(very weak) sci-fi" type of person.

Kage

While this is simply my opinion, I've always considered the difference to be one of scale: Cogitators are smaller and might even be portable in some cases. Logic Engines are larger and emplaced in permanent facilities.

...and either might or might not make use of punch cards, data crystals, data wafers, or any of the other types of data storage in 40K .

computer, desktop, laptop, notebook, netbook, server, pc, mac, mainframe, console. These are all essentially the same technology. I would interpret 'logic engine' and 'Cogitator' the same way, essentially the same, different spec and purpose. Maybe a logic engine is a big mainframe like machine designed to do big number crunching, while a cogitator is more of a general purpose machine, like a desktop computer.

Personally, I find the idea of punch cards totally absurd. Which means that its probably appropriate for 40k, libraries with endless boxes of punch cards... *shudder*

The problem with punch cards is thats its relatively easy to get them mixed up or out of order, at which point they are 100% uselss.

Although I would doubt that punch cards are used extensively by the Adeptus Terra, you simply can't hold enough information with them for it to be vialbe, I'm all for Grim-Dark, but there is a point where it stops being Grim-Dark and just becomes absurd.

Agmar_Strick said:

Amen to that... But what about... fractal punch cards !?

I'm kidding.

Kage

As I have found in the fluff cogitators tend to be small. It is described in stories and in descriptions that the Mechanus put cogitators into their own heads and into the heads of their constructs.

Logic Engines seem to be larger, more central based servers with dedicated remote terminals. Using the book Xenology as an example for Logic engines, at the heart of the "Zoo" was a logic engine that head terminals in the lab, and in the library. All of the voice and data entries were made from those two points as I remember, and the point of the Logic Engine was to be a central repository and controller. All of the Servitors and building functions were also controlled by/through the Logic Engine.

So in essence, they are both computers by our standards, just one is more of a personal device and the other is more of a server/central control device.

BlacKat

On the point of being absurd....isnt the prol system becoming too crammed full of records ? Go figure...they need new planets to store punch cards.

Honestly.

New planets to store more neatly stacked and sorted cards with holes in them. To rot away. In the darkness. Silently.

And the corpses of archivars killed by collapsed stacks of cards between them. Never found. Never mournt for.

****, i´m in the mood.

You are aware that CDs and DVDs are just punch cards whose holes are small enough that it takes lazer precision to spot them, right?

Looked at that way, ALL digital media are punch cards.

I would say that the most common form of data storage is holographic, hence the ubiquitous data crystal that pops up so often. (books are also common but I would assume only used in data storage for very select information).

The problem with punch cards is memory storage space. It would take 90,000,000 punch cards (yep 90 million) to store the data on a single dvd (8gb variety). Grimdark does not cover that, it does not matter how many planets you converted into filing cabinets it would not be enough..

Actually, punch cards share an advantage with books. They're environmentally insensitive. A book doesn't die from electrostatic impulse, electromagnetic pulse, or even from intense heat or cold (unless it's hot enough to ignite the page or cold enough to freeze it).. Books are an astonishingly common medium in 40k because they also have one other advantage - paper, ink, and binding can be made by hand without tools and cheaply, where digital media requires technology to manufacture, and manufacturing technology is a bit blinky in the Imperium. A printing press, on the other hand, is a pretty stable machine. (Note, I'm not comparing modern methods, I'm comparing 40k methods.) Punch cards have many of the same advantages.

Optical disks don't last for very long, but hypothetically holographic crystal might, so it represents another useful mechanism for data storage. Like I said earlier, digital tape is good, although it's susceptible to electromagnetics.

Vinyl, man. It's the only way.

Honestly, the fluff has included optical data wafers (CD/DVD?), holographic crystals, metallic punch cards (I don't care if it is impractical; they've appeared in several novels), and other mediums for data storage/utilization. In the case of punch cards, from what I recall from the novels I've read, they usually act more in an access code type device for data stacks, or used to run simple repetitive programs on lower tech worlds. Really, with feral and feudal worlds, hive and forge worlds, you don't think somewhere in all the diversity of technology there aren't going to be worlds that utilize punch cards.

Data-slates: DH Core, pg. 150

"... the primary means of storing and readin pinted text and other media such as video and audio recordings ."

Cogitator Systems: IHB, pg. 146

"Machines created to sift and consider data, to calculate and process the sacred language of algorithm.. ." These generally come in two forms, Emplaced and Personal . Typical examples of uses for an Emplaced Cogitator are keeping track of planetary tithes, or reconstruction of genotypes. Personal Cogitators are portable (I picture something akin to the old portable word processors) and can read data from data-slates and other similar sources.

As to what exactly a Logic Engine would be, that's a good question. My thought is just a more advanced emplaced cogitator running more advanced algorithms; capable of limited deduction and speculation within a specialized scope dependant upon its intended duty.

Yeah, I think you've hit the nail on the head, there, Bro. Praetus. They're all computers, it's a question of scale and utility that divides their nomenclature. I see it as:-

Cogitator = calculator or low-level computer, depending upon whether emplaced or portable

Dataslate = either a PDA or a storage medium (in the sisters of battle book there's a great picture of a preacher reading from a pda designed to look like a scroll, that's how I've always seen a dataslate, but I recognise the term is also used in DH to describe what could be a floppy disc)

Logic-engine = as Brother Praetus says, a high powered personal computer

and there's two other categories missed out in this thread...

Data Loom = supercomputer. Used for the "dull" stuff supercomputers are meant to be used for, weather prediction etc. However, in the Ravenor series, the archvillain Molotch uses dozens of datalooms to decode a deadly warptainted language. They seem to be rare, with only a handful in every sector, mostly used for tithe computing.

Machine spirit = a high powered computer of any of the above classes encoded with some form of AI programming.I would guess that the Imperium is probably relatively free of "true" self aware AIs, but that advanced "machine spirits" like the ones that control Land Raiders are quite common. These would be well programmed computers that are capable of friend/foe recognition and holding their own in a simple firefight. If you think about it, the enemy soldiers in games like Halo are encoded with simple AI programming, so this sort of stuff is probably fairly common in the Imperium

The term "machine spirit" is a good one that fits the medievel mindset of the average human in 40K: just because a Landraider's computer is probably nowhere near as powerful as a dataloom supercomputer, it is more impressive to them because it smites the foes of the Emperor. As such "machine spirits" that do impressive things like that are perceived as wiser and more magnificent than computers that are more complex and advanced in absolute terms.

As to the whole data storage thing, I agree that punchcards are a cool way of displaying the 40k approach to computing. How about this for an idea, though: if you're going to store data for thousands of years, and you want the punch cards to be built from an inert metal that won't corrode or decay, what better material than...gold?

Imagine a forge world that 2,000 years ago produced a simple STC blueprint for a lasgun in digital format...on 500,000 gold punchcards. Now have that collection of punchcards lost for 2,000 years. Now have rumours of its discovery on a jungle world come to light. Have the Admech send a bunch of fanatical techpriests out to find it, alongside assorted other treasure hunters, who want to melt the cards down and sell them. Now have the players come at the story from the other angle, discovering that a cultist is trying to seel the punchcards to finance a revolution on Scintilla...stir...bake for 45 mins...then sit back and watch the resulting chaos!