Well someone else has made a better reply about the chart than I was thinking. But let me just say that people are far too quick to jump to conclusions when it comes to Ward's tenure. Such as the alluded to response earlier, about the Grey Knights' origins. A different poster I know, but it's another example of someone jumping right to, "Matt Ward did this, so it sucks".

Dulahan said:

You make an excellent arguement. I'd never really considered it in those terms before. I like it.

BTs have 6000 marines across the galaxy?

Ha…I think the numbers are closer to 15,000+.

I'm fine with Space Wolves having over 10,000. It'd be harder for me to suspend disbelief if they only had like 1200 total.

Though it's not as if the Dark Angels and Ultramarines aren't effectively legions in some ways, given how much power/authority those First Foundings of those Legions wield over their successors.

If I remember correctly from the old Index Astartes articles and books the BT were rumored around 10k, but its been a loooong time since I've read those. Personally as someone who has been playing Wolves since RT I kinda like the idea of the 2nd ed numbers but then again I could be completely biased.

In fairness, not only are the BT in a constant state of massive recruitment wherever they go, but the very nature of their crusade means that if THEY know how many BT marines there are, I'd be surprised.

THey're below Legion strength, more than that… who knows?

While I'm ashamed to admit to a lack of fluff knowledge, is anyone familiar with any other canon perma-crusade 'chapters' like the BT? If anyone says Astral Claws I shall give them a smack. They don't count.

Marines Errant used to be a perma-crusade "chapter". I think the BT were the first time there was a reference anywhere to actual numbers though. I certainley cant recall anything before that.

You gotta figure being a crusade chapter and well.. being BT that they have a pretty damned high turnover ratio as well.

If the BT in my group is anything to go by, they sure do. Frankly, I wouldn't trust that guy near a balcony, or with basic power tools. It's almost like he's attempting to make natural selection itself cry. That character has the same sense of self preservation as a depressed lemming in a store called Razors'r'Us. And not once has anyone managed to call him out for NOT acting like a Black Templar.

According to the Codex (a bit dated now, I know) the only one who actually knows the number of Crusades in operation (and their approximate size) is the High Marshal. And just going by all of the examples we've had, Crusades number from about 150-500+, including the outliers. High Marshal Helbrecht brought 3 Crusades, totally roughly 1,000 Marines, to the 3rd War for Armageddon. It would not be unreasonable to guess that he has a lot of seperate Crusade forces that he can afford to draw three to one planet, and that there are probably several that are larger in size.

And the citation of them having something like 6,000 marines is correct, but the fluff mentioning it mentions a Crusade that I don't think was ever dated, so we don't know when in the timeline they had this many. While I don't recall anything in the Codex mentioning them having 10,000 either. The real determiner of their numbers would be just how many Keeps they have staffed with the veterans needed to pick and prepare recruits for squiring under an Initiate. I can see them not wanting to keep that many skilled and experienced Marines out of deployment (not to mention the desires of the Marines themselves) for too long a period of time.

And there are a few more perma-crusade Chapters, though I can't recall any myself. The Carchodons are said to be a rarely seen variant of the "Crusade Chapter" Astartes, when they're being described in the Imperial Armour book.

All the Ward-hate makes me laugh. I remember the changes from RT to 2nd to 3rd and the changes he makes are nothing like the horrendous alterations that happened in those days. Someone said Squats are back, and I can only hope that it wasn't a joke. I'd really like to see something much more like the original RT since all the the current stuff - especially the uber-Primarch-crap of the HH novels - is utter crap by comparison.

HappyDaze said:

The Squats are mentioned as accepted abhumans in the back of the book. There is a LOT of 2nd ed fluff back in the book (although, truth be told, I've been mainly foccussing on the rules aspect rather than the fluff aspect). 6th ed appears to be when GW authors of all stripes have selected the things they really liked about previous editions and threw them all in. Loving it.

Kshatriya said:

Of course, the text in the appendices also mention that more than a few High Lords have gone missing due to the actions of the Inquisition…

herichimo said:

Most of the core background is actually unchanged since 2nd edition. Most of the changes occurred through 1st edition and in the change over to 2nd, rather than during 2nd itself. Since then it has mainly been minor changes, tweaks and changes in emphasis rather than any major changes.

"Matt Ward did this, so it sucks". - More "This sucks, therefore Ward must have done it."

I know that there have been hints about the Emperor being the source of the Grey Knights geneseed for a while, but it was just one of many suggestions of an answer to the mystery of where they came from, and not necessarily the most likely. I was under the impression it was more that it was the only "new" geneseed developed after the original legions, rather than it came from the Emperor, who I thought was more the source for the Custodes. It now being "official" doesn't endear me to the idea, and the fact that it was a sucky bit of background about a Chapter that Matt Ward did the Codex for (filled with sucky sucky background like Grey Knights wearing Sisters of Battle hats and Chaos gods running away from a Marine), made me think it was probably a bit of background introduced with his suggestion.

herichimo said:

I can explain it quite easily… It's still valid There is no need to change anything that works.

As for the Astartes they has always reported to the Administratum. Regardless of how special your special forces are they still work under the mandate of a political wing of the government, war is an extension of diplomacy, when an armed force does not operate under the mandate of a government it becomes a terrorist organisation.

I haven't got time to do a detailed post on 6th ed, but I have to say I haven't seen any particularly egregious background changes within the book - I think it's a really nice piece of work - background wise. No idea how it plays yet!

I liked 5th ed's "five minutes to midnight" feel, with much new info on the degenerating Imperium. 6th ed downplays that angle a little , but as far as I can see is a very respectful summary of the state of play for 40k background. I think it's a solid book, to be honest. A lot of the internet hate seems to come from people who are miffed at some tiny angle they have misunderstood about the evolution of the "canon" (I hate that word).

Plus the art's fantastic and the book is so large and heavy that you can use it kill burglars!

borithan said:

I'm hearing the former, a lot more than the latter…

Kinda reminds me about how a lot of people absolutely, desperately wanted to hate the new Necrons. For them to suck. For him to have ruined them forever by making them something other than mindless automatons led by super-powerful beings that really have no right on the tabletop any more than Primarchs would (the shard thing I'm cool with).

Or, like all of a sudden, the idea that the Grey Knights geneseed came from the Emperor, is something you absolutely hate, even though it's been around for years, because they threw it in the rulebook this time. Or the other's comments about 2nd ed fluff.

And UncleArkie, they're not the special forces. They're the Knight's Templar. The Tuetonic Order. A bunch of knights with a cause, and the power to pursue that cause independently. And Dulahand already did an excellent job explaining why Space Marines can get away with a lot of bucking their place in the hierarchy. Hell, some of the really old ones are still following standing orders from Dad (the Emperor).

Bringing Squats back… heh, I bet they got sick of being asked when they were bringing them back. Back in fluff, doesn't mean they'll have an army, though. Possible I suppose, but unlikely.

And I like that 6th ed apparently tones down the 5-minutes-to-midnight thing. It always just annoyed me that they were having the Astronomicon failing, because the Golden Throne and Emperor dieing is about the only thing that could bring the Imperium down, going by the status quo.

I seem to recall reading about the creation of the Grey Knights in the Horus Heresy book? It was my understanding that the Emperors Gene-seed was always used in the fluff that I've had access too. (Although I'm a recent fan compared to some of you lot )

Blood Pact said:

I will say I am not that keen on the new Necrons. Yes, the C'Tan were overdone in the previous codex, and they really needed some more variety in their units, but I felt the Necrons themselves (rather than the C'Tan and the army list) were fine. The current changes just seem to have turned them into tomb-kings in space (ok, they were 40k's version of the undead, and there was some Egyptian style references, but this turned them entirely into it). However, aside from this, as far as I have heard it wasn't too bad. Many people hated the C'Tan, and playing that down pleased them, and I don't think there was anything as irritating as the Blood Angels/Necron incident (or the simple silliness of Deep Striking Land Raiders and flying dreadnaughts), or the god awful stuff from the Grey Knights Codex.

I actually found the tone very odd. To me they played the "1 minute to midnight" thing up even more than they did in any other codex (namely, they explicitly state the Imperium is on the verge of collapse, while as before it was mostly implied through the use of describing increasingly desperate events). However, at the same time, the book seemed much more hopeful than any previous iteration. The psychic awakening of mankind leading to a new Golden Age is treated as an actual possibility, rather than a hope that may have saved humanity in the past but now can only lead to its destruction.

New abhumans, one of which is catfolk. Squats are back. Lovely art of some xenos on page 198, including a quirky little Hrud and a lovely Tarellian Dog-Soldier.

Blood Pact said:

We can agree that they are more or less Knight in Space, that said… Even the knightly orders during the middle ages for the most part took orders from the ruling monarchs and nobles of the time, the exception being the knights templar and Hospitalers who operated fairly independently under papal crusader mandate. They still bent their knee when the king of Jerusalem told them to. So the example become, normal chapters take orders (ops) Death Watch and Grey Knights operate like papal orders and the rest under one mandate or another "protect this region of space" (Brotherhood of the Snake), Fight the Ork's in this area (Crimson Fists), Sit on your rock and brood about how emo everything is (Dark Angels) ect. Each chapter still act under a mandate and are formed to fulfill some specific purpose. Only the First Founding guys really get the red carpet "We will **** with what we want" treatment because even looking at their home world while smiling funnily is considered heresy of the worst sort. And as you mentioned the smurf's more or less only take orders from daddy.

PS. The Tuetonic order (Sword Brethren) were more or less the model for the Black Templars (ok they do have a crusade mandate and do as they please), however the order lost it's significance after the lands north/east of Poland were christianised.

Back on track, new fluff. Have anyone else noted that it seems very strongly hinted at that the Ad-Mech are basically coming apart in the seems?

Cat People…

Seriously?

Dulahan said:

Yes… Regrettably that is in the appendix, I'm not saying that I like it, but it is. It's a mention, they live on one planet and are going extinct.

Dulahan said:

Perhaps we should look on the bright side and see it as an opportunity to brutally repress furries.

Plushy said:

And a really clunkly Necron, and a tentacle-monster? I think I know what box you're talking about, it was in the 3rd edition rule book. Though I hope I'm just jumping to conclusions, cause new renditions would be cool.

borithan said:

It was one of those things where GW hinted at it without saying anything more. It's one of the more obscure examples too. I don't even entirely recall where I read it. I think it might have been the White Dwarf re-introducing the Grey Knights in to 3rd edition. When they were just a squad of Terminators, instead of an entire army. It might also be the 40K Fluff Bible (which despite being a huge .doc file compiled from a vast array of sources, is still the definitive source for the 40K universe, decades later… if you can find a copy).

Either way, it's not a new idea, or "fanon" (fan belief that is so widespread it is mistaken for canon). Just really **** obscure and old.

Necrons, I suppose, to each his own. But I don't feel they lose anything going from mindless automatons, to a race that uploaded themselves to machine bodies in a desperate bid to survive galactic cataclysm, and what not (and the current setup doesn't actually negate you the possibility of mindless drones). And that was the typical complaint that I heard about them.

And the fall of the Imperium… well, a while back I went on a bit of a rant in a Black Crusade forum thread, about how the Imperium has survived a lot of galaxy-shaking cataclysms and other hardships (Goge Vandire to name but one). And that I can't possibly see it falling now without the writers just declaring it to be so, Deus Ex Machina.

UncleArkie said:

Maybe that's the joke though. The main GW writers might read /tg/ from time to time too.

Also… damnit I wish I had money for the new rulebook right now~!

Can't recall who posted on the matter, but here's a list of the changes to the Galaxy map from 5th to 6th edition.

Segmentum Obscurus

AluminiumWolf said:

This almost makes me wish this forum had a like button

Bleh double post, please delete.