Hi:

A couple of qs about obedience & command in the Daethwatch. I have searched the books for answers but seems either there are none or I am as blind as a bat.

Please help!!!

1. Is there such thing as a "normal chain of command" in DW? What I mean is that, if a KT's leader is either:

a-First among equals (he's the appointed "guide/decision-maker" but his decisions can be debated & refused; more like the team's all equals, but someone has to be the leader, whilst the others fill other roles) ?

b-Someone who's in charge & has to be obeyed without question (his decisions are final because he's the best one for the job, has more exp., more rank, etc., like in a regular army-type set-up ) ?

2.What happens if someone in the K-team disobeys the leader's orders?

Am I completely missing the point on a KT's/DW dynamics, perhaps?

Thanks!

L

I'd say that the leader is first among equals and that they should solve their internal squabbles themselves. If they can't solve it and it put their efficiency of operating at risk then they could bring it up to their Watch Captain to make a decision about it. If he can't I suppose the matter could be brought up to the Watch Commander who would have the final word on it.

If the disobeying member becomes a trouble that makes the entire Kill-Team unoperational or some such thing then I would assume the Space Marine is reassigned to a new Kill Team. If he's really can't work with the Deathwatch I would assume that his vigil is declared to be at an end and he's sent home again.

That's how I would envision that it would happen anyway.

Gurkhal said:

That would be my take on the chain of command thing.

First you have SM's of different chapters placed together all of which we assume to have aprox. the same amount of battle exp. as each other. So it goes without saying that the KT leader would be a first among equals type position. That and I've never seen reference any were (in my reading) of a Watch Sargent.

Also if you think about it in a game sense, having a mini dictator running the party is bound to rub the wrong way with some people. I think some of us have been in a group were (the Paladin) or other group member has declared "It's my way or the highway!". I know as a PC that can be a game killer, so thus 'first among equals' is perfect, and due to the backgrounds of the KT and the DW org. it makes sense.

Also in the DW game my group played before we where not that concerned with being completely cannon, so we elected two of us to be leaders (we were in a 10 person game.) The decision worked out great the group I lead for some reason Always ran into the 'Boss' monsters first (and said boss monsters would always Head shot, (but not kill) me). while the other group with All the crazies (don't know how we allowed all of them to be on one squad) would either Crash, have a large Bomb drop on them, or just plain survive a orbital strike. I personally can't figure out how we only lost 2 members (1 to Friendly Fire).

The Cohesion Challenge mechanic is designed for the occurrence of the KT not following the leader's orders. But I'd say it has to be kind of a big deal. Zigging when you were told to zag should not prompt it. Flat out ignoring the leader's battle plan or challenging his competence…that probably would.

From my reading of the DW fluff material there is no 'leader' unless there is a lack of consensus. The Kill Team Leader is there to inspire, advise, and abritrate ties. He's not here to order his cohorts around. They explicitly call out that there are no Sergeants in the Deathwatch. You, in theory, pick your leader that's best for the mission parameters.

If there is a disruptive squad member that goes against the flow, provided he doesn't endanger the mission or the team at most I'd expect the KT to put in a request for a new member. If that Marine endangers the lives of his fellows or the mission, it's going to come up and be apparent in the after action reports the Kill Team writes and gives to their Captain. At that point the Captain, if he's any good, would deal with any situations he feels aren't being handled by the squad on its own.

The way I read cohesion challenges is that they are less about obeying orders of the Leader (as anyone can call for Squad Mode abilities) but more about the general cohesion of the squad. If a challenge is failed, I see it as representing that the Marine tried to join up and coordinate his actions with the rest of the squad, lost track of them, fell behind, or got distracted, and wasn't able to join up in the coordinated fighting. The Marine can then either attempt to slide in again or say 'I know how to do this on my own.' Failing a cohesion challenge shouldn't represent your PC deciding not to obey someone, IMO.

It doesn't need to represent only that, but that would be one of the parameters.

If you choose to ignore the guy you elected as First Among Equals For A Day, you still chose to ignore the guy who was First. Maybe that's insubordination. Maybe that causes friction with your Brothers because Brother Pyriel is best trained for fighting on volcanic planets and you said "nope, not doing that, I'll do what I want" and now you're a loose cannon and an unknown asset and they have to both watchguard you and compensate for you.

Kshatriya said:

Hiyas:

So, how would one handle this? A Cohesion Challenge for each t-member? Then what? If losing Cohesion automatickally, how much?

Thanks!

L

Kshatriya said:

Right, but that all comes down to the player deciding what to do, and his squad mates reacting to what the player character does. Failing a cohesion challenge, specifically to enter squad mode, means you suck at syncing up with the squad - either because of luck or becuase the squad is not in a good way. How is failing a roll insubordination? If I participate in a bolter assault and fail on my roll to throw a grenade and it scatters into my squad's feet, that's not being insubordinate, that's just a screw up- maybe it pisses my team off maybe it doesn't. You didn't intentionally screw up, you failed at doing something. What happens if the leader fails to make a cohesion challenge? Is he insubordinate to himself, or does his failure suddenly mean that all his fellows are giving him the finger?

If a character chooses to ignore his team and run off on his own that's one thing. Maybe it just rubs me the wrong way when games try to say 'you failed roll x, you now behave in a way that's potentially contrary to your character's personality.' You take the role in roleplay and turn it to roll.

LETE said:

Follow the straight-up Cohesion challenge rules. The leader makes the roll; if he fails, you lose Cohesion.

There is one huge issue with this: there is no Cohesion cap, and no Cohesion decay outside from spending it, so a KT can easily have over 10 Cohesion and be effectively immune to Cohesion challenges. Something I've houseruled around because it made me mad.

Charmander said:

I never meant anything aside from this. I didn't state and don't think I even implied that failing a roll or choosing not to participate in a Squad Mode should trigger a challenge.

Kshatriya said:

Hello!

Doesn't the KT also lose Cohesion by certain kinds weapon damage?

L

Devastating weapons in certain circumstances.