Ok I have a question about game etiquette regarding non-optional actions such as renown/card draw/claim etc…

Lets say that you've won a challenge and had a character that should have claimed renown but you forgot to move the power over and then another challenge was initiated that might have been different had you claimed the renown. According to the rule text renown isn't necessarily an 'optional' response. The text says that it happens right? So at this point can the renown still be rewarded or has the opportunity to claim the renown passed even though it wasn't an optional action in the first place.

Same thing goes for things like opposing titles.. If I forget to claim the extra power immediately after I win a challenge against someone I oppose is the opportunity lost or can I still claim it.

Another example is Meereen for card draw. There were a couple of times I've triggered Meereen during a challenge but got so caught up in all the other responses to winning the challenge that I forgot to immediately draw cards and went on to the next challenge or even phase.. I've already triggered the response so I should get the card draw regardless? Or was the chance lost even though I've already triggered the response but just forgot to draw?

Also, lets say I have some refugees out that were supposed to be discarded from play when I lost dominance but I forgot to remove them and my opponent didn't notice. And since that time actions have happened that may otherwise have been different had they been removed from play like they were supposed to have been. Since the dominance phase has passed, do they remain in play or do I discard them? Do we try and reset back to the previous dominance phase even though cards may have been played since then?

How about in a multiplayer game where players begin marshaling phase without choosing titles? Do you reset back? or play the round without titles?

Personally I would think that it is the responsibility of both players to remember "Must happen" actions like renown/card draw/claim and that you could go ahead and take these "Must happen" actions even after the fact to avoid illegal game states. However I would like to know if there is any official stance on these types of situations or what the most common etiquette is.

Thanks.

I'm going to answer as best I can from a tourney perspective, but how you decide to work it amongst yourselves in the privacy of your own home is up to you.

Typically the rule of thumb is to go back no further than the current phase. This is pretty simple for things like renown, card draw, unopposed power, etc. It can prove a little tetchy when you have a Refugee survive to the next phase (and in most local games, we will still discard the character, like we'll let someone "remember" to use Meraxes or pay the 1 Influence to get back a Forever Burning), but both players are responsible for the game state, and each of them should be as guilty for these kinds of mistakes. Sure, you might not care if you're opponent forgot the renown on their Stannis Baratheon… until they marshall Ellaria Sand and wish it was there.

I hope this is a simple rule of thumb, and consider it a learning experience that everyone is trying to improve. As a friend once said when she saw a tournament being played, "How can you all play a game _at a tournament_ when you still have questions about the rules?"

here is the rule i prefer to play by. "Don't be a ****.". That covers just about everything Forgot to discard your refugee and someone calls you on it? Discard it. Notice someone missed renown? Give it to them. Realize in dominance that you forgot to put Meera back into shadows? Too bad, don't even ask to do because that makes YOU the ****

I hate it when someone asks me to 'allow' them to retroactively trigger a response during a tourney because that puts me in a position to either A) be a jerk by saying no, or B) puts me in a worse position in the game by allowing them to draw/claim etc…..

Own your mistakes and you will be a better player for it. Forget to put Meera back into shadows and have it cost you a top8 berth, trust me, it'll never happen again.

(above comments to be applied to optional triggers only, for renown claim, passives etc, imo those must be fixed immediately no matter how far later the mistake is discovered).

dcdennis said:

Yeah, I don't even try to ask for optional responses after the fact and generally don't allow my opponents to do missed ones if the phase has passed (unless they are minor and/or wont make much of a difference in the game outcome). However I do feel that passives should be resolved no matter how late.. I was mostly looking for some kind of consensus on the issue because everyone I ask seems to have a slightly different take on the issue with some people wanting to take the "too late is too late" approach and others wanting to take the "must happens: must happen" approach. I suppose if the players at the table can't agree on a solution it would fall to the TO/House Judge to make the call.

I'd be very interested if there been official tournament rulings on such issues and how they were resolved.

Don't be a ****,

sometimes it just gets too complicated to go back. i had someone with a 2 claim plot forget to kill another character after a military win, so in dominance he asked if i could kill one , now i only had a refugee as claimsoak but if i killed him he wouldnt have been able to participate in the power challenge i won, and my red viper alone wouldnt have been enough to trigger superior claim and so on and so on

jack merridew said:

From the core rules:

"The defending opponent must choose and kill a number of his characters in play equal to the claim value on the attacker’s revealed plot card"

The ways the rule is written makes it the defeated defenders responsibility to know what claim is. So it wasn't the guy with the claim two plot who made the mistake, it was you.

In situations like that, where claim (or some other non-optional factor) was somehow mistakenly handled, but trying to "rewind" to fix it would invalidate actions taken later, my group generally corrects it part way.

In the above example, the defending player would kill the additional character, but maintain the resolution of other actions/events that followed the challenge.

It's not a perfect solution, as the integrity of the game has been compromised, but it works okay.

I know this doesn't actually solve the problem, but I'm with Luke generally - go back no further than the current phase. If you've got a problem with it, then talk to the TO. (Although many TOs will say that 1) it's both players' responsibility to monitor the game state, 2) a missed mandatory effect is a warning the first time, and 3) is a game loss the second time.) Marshall the wrong card? Forget it. Forget to trigger a response? Sorry, bud. That's how the game's played.

I have never known a TO to say a 'second missed mandatory" is a game loss. I've seen them follow something like Luke's philosophy:

1. If the players realize it in the same round and it wouldn't have had an impact on what has happened in-between, fix it.
2. If the players realize it in the same round and it would have had an impact on what has happened in-between, fix it, but don't rewind (unless both players agree to rewind and to what point).
3. If the players realize it in a different round or at a point where it is too difficult to determine what impact it might have had, oh well. Be more observant next time.

1-3 assumes an honest and/or intermittent mistake. You're not going to be able to get away with "I haven't been claiming power for renown on that guy and he has won 6 challenges, so my 9 is really 15 and I won the game awhile ago, even though you just got your 15th power for Dominance." (And yes, I have seen someone try that.)

But yeah, if you forget to trigger an effect or decide you should have played your cards differently, tough. Suck it up and learn from the mistake.