Hello, I am a previous player from the CCG times, where typically a challenge would initiate when attackers were declared. Apparently this is not so in the timing shown in FAQ 3.2 in the LCG. There, it can be undersood that the challenge is initiated before declaring attackers or type, but at the moment that one player states that he will do the challenge. Given this several questions arise which are not evident.

Let's start with the easy ones:

1- Is the intepretation of the FAQ correct? the challenge is initiated at the moment that the player states that he will start a challenge, thus opening action window?

2- The first player becomes active and then 'decides' or 'states' that he will not declare any challenge, so does the second player after becoming active. Does that mean that absolutely no action windows are opened during challenges phase?

3- Why is there not a window of 'decision' before actions in the timing of the challenges phase?

And now the more tricky one:

given that the previous interpretation of the FAQ timing is right:

4- One of the revealed plots is uneasy truce. A player has already declared an INT and a POW challenge this phase. He STATES that he will do another challenge before declaring type, although he has no gold in his pool, he opens then an action window which he might use either to get gold, or to allow himself to declare another kind of challenge. But he doesn't do so, instead he does some other action, so the only challenge he could be initiating (or actually have already initiated) is a military challenge, but the plot say he can't, so he could'nt even have initiated the current challenge and could'nt have opened an action window, but he actually has already done it!

Could there please be some clarification about this?

Thanks.

DaemonBlackfyre

daemonblackfyre said:

1. The Challenge phase begins and the first player becomes the active player.
2. Then, there is a player action window in which all players, not just the active player, can use "Challenges" and "Any Phase" actions.
3. Not until after all players have had the opportunity to take actions is the active player allowed to initiate his first challenge
4. Challenges start when the active player says "I'm doing a challenge," but in order for the challenge to truly begin, they must also say "it's an X-type challenge against Y-player, and I'll be attacking with these characters." There is absolutely nothing in the game that can interrupt this process (although there is one seldom used card that adds to it), so even though they are technically different steps, there is no practical way to do anything between those steps. As a result, the challenge "begins" - in the sense that other players can do things - when the attacker declares his attacking characters. And, it is worth noting that the challenge is not successfully initiated unless the type, defender, and attacking characters are all determined.

So, since there is a player action window between the phase starting and the active player's opportunity to declare a challenge, I'm not sure what you mean by no action windows being opened if the first player doesn't declare any challenges. An action window opens before he even has the chance to make that determination. And I'm not at all sure what a "window of decision" is supposed to be.

daemonblackfyre said:

There is no place in the timing structure for any player to take any actions between announcing the challenge, announcing type and defender, and declaring attackers. These are "framework events" in a single framework action window. You cannot use player actions between framework events. (Heck, you can't even use Responses - except for applicable saves and cancels - between framework events.) So this question is a complete non-issue. If a player has done his INT and POW challenge for the phase, has gone through the player action window between challenges, and gotten to the next "initiate challenge" framework window, he can't say "I'm going to do a challenge," and then start playing other effects. He either has to go through the whole process for initiating a challenge (including the gold "donation" as part of announcing type and opponent), or say "no challenge."

This is no different than not being able to take actions between revealing a plot and counting initiative, or between determining the winner of the challenge and getting power for Renown. You state that you will do a challenge BY announcing type and opponent, then declaring attackers. If you do not do those things, you do not state that you will be doing a challenge. So it's not like you can say "I'm going to do another challenge - but first, I'm going to…."

Ultimately, I think you are overthinking things. The challenge phase has not changed since before the Valyrian Edition of the CCG.

But Welcome back! ; )

Thank you for the prompt reply and the comments. Probably my questions weren't posted in the clearest way, but your answer was clear, so the only question that remains is much simpler: is there an action window after the last challenge of the phase is resolved? I think the timing diagram doesn't make that clear, and I believe in the CCG there actually was that window (that's how we played 15 years ago, not 6 or 7).

Thanks in advance

DaemonBlackfyre

daemonblackfyre said:

Anyway, I totally agree - the diagram does not make it clear. However, it is in there. After the "challenge resolution" framework window, there is an arrow going back to the player action window before the "initiate challenge" framework window. What this is supposed to show is that the progress to the "next player becomes active player" window doesn't happen until the current active player has actually passed on the opportunity to initiate a challenge (either because they can't, or they don't want to initiate another one). So it is not the resolution of the "last" challenge that bumps you ahead to the next active player so much as the lack of initiation of the "next" challenge.

Which is all just a long, complicated way of saying "yes, there is a player action window after the challenge resolves but before the next one begins."

Oh but you are right, It was only exactly 10 years ago! sorry for that error, you know… the age… lol. It felt like more honestly.

Back to your explanation, your long explanation is clear and makes me confirm that effectively yes, there is an action window that opens after the last challenge of the challenges phase resolves, and before the phase effectively ends (by lack of initiation of another challenge).

But if I only read your short explanation it was a little confusing because you made reference to a window opening "before the next challenge begins" when I was explicitly posing the situation where no other challenge is going to begin, so I understand it (correct me if I am wrong) as: "yes, there is a player action window after the challenge resolves but before the opportunity of initiating (or not) the next one occurs"

Thanks again, and congratulations for your work, the game has become very rich in strategies,

DaemonBlackfyre